Dune

It was not the same physical Idaho, no, but continuity of memory is what makes someone a "person", much more so than the collection of cells that makes up their physical body, and by the end of Heretics, Idaho has gained access to the complete memories of his serial lives (something inexplicable according to In-Universe understanding of genetic memory, and called out as such).

Also, the Reverend Mother Odrade conducts an investigation into Arrakis and realizes that Leto is still shaping the destiny of humanity through his oracular vision, even after his apparent death and even in the face of the supposed immunity to prescient vision possessed by the descendants of Siona. He does this through the vehicle of his sandtrout "descendants", which act as a subconscious Hive Mind that continues to hold his vision in place throughout the centuries. Odrade deliberately lures the Honored Matres into destroying the planet in order to eliminate this influence.

Of course, the end of Chapterhouse calls into question the success of her gambit, as we get that weird scene of the ghola-farmers discussing how Idaho and his little band escaped their vision.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It's been a long time since I read Chapterhouse, and I don't recall if I ever did get to the end of it. That's probably my main reason for saying "stop at God Emperor" - the two books after that didn't impress me nearly as much.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick

As I've said many times, it got really trippy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Regarding whether each of the Duncans is the same character, I don't think they actually do have continuity of memory, at least not in the strictest sense. Gholas aren't created with their memories intact, so when their memories are restored they have the pre-ghola (original Idaho) memories and the memories that they developed between the time of their creation and when their pre-ghola memories were restored. The new individual can't be identical to the original Idaho, because he has those "second childhood" memories integrated into his personality.

Many Idahos received different training in their pre-awakening years as well, like Hayt's training as a Zensunni philosopher and Mentat, which made him a very different individual. There are also sometimes physical differences, like Hayt's metal eyes.

The Dune Encyclopedia has some fun with entries on various Idaho gholas during Leto's reign and their differences, including mention of a female Idaho, who was immediately killed on delivery to Leto, both because she was useless to his breeding program and because he took it as an attempt by the Tlielaxu to manipulate him sexually.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick

Obviously it can't be the original Idaho. But the continuity of memory of the last Idaho ghola creates continuity of characterization for the audience. We have a person (who is not a Bene Gesserit — an important distinction) who remembers Paul's life, Leto II's life, and many other lives besides.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Another way of looking at it, though, is that Duncan is a guy who repeatedly gets and recovers from amnesia.

Though I can't remember if it was possible to have two different gholas of the same person walking around at once.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Physically possible? There would seem to be no reason why not. As to whether there is some metaphysical "personhood" that can only be held by one individual with the same genes at the same time, there's nothing in the text to establish that one way or the other.

We do know that the Tleilaxu grew multiple Idaho gholas and replaced them with some degree of frequency — the implication is that they had more than one in the pipeline at any given time. Note that each Idaho requested by Leto II is fully mature on delivery, and gholas undergo the same life cycle as natural humans. This implies a series of them kept in isolation and "awoken" as needed.

Also note that, until the Idaho in Heretics, none of the gholas had ever expanded their awareness to encompass their serial lives.

edited 24th Feb '17 10:58:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The first ghola, Hayt, wasn't a clone. He was claimed to be the original Duncan Idaho regenerated in the axolotl tanks. There's only about ten years between when Idaho died and when Hayt was presented to Paul, so there obviously wasn't enough time to grow a clone "from scratch".

How does the Idaho in Heretics have all of the memories of his ghola lives? It only seems to make sense if the Tlielaxu somehow recovered genetic material from all of them to recombine into that particular Idaho, a sort of genetic memory.

Or, possibly, there really is a "spirit" of Duncan Idaho that lived in each ghola and retained the memories of those lives on a level that could eventually be awoken in the final Idaho. That possibility would mean there could be only one "real" ghola of a person at a time.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick

That is an important question, is it not? And it is raised by the narrative, while never being addressed.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

And in other news, it looks like we're actually going to have Dune, the Ballet. At least, if you live in or near Baltimore.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

So, thinking about listening to this series. (audiobooks rule) It's pretty well-regarded and sounds interesting and I think it came up in that On-Topic thread about politics in our media that influences our culture. That's kinda what got me to think about diving in.

Should I just go through the original series and ignore the prequels and whatnot?

The prequels and sequels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are a significant step down in quality of writing, and also don't really jive with the backstory as implied by the original books. Skip them. Start with the original Dune, then go on to the Frank Herbert sequels (Messiah through Chapterhouse) if you like it. The first book is generally considered to be the best - IMO, the subsequent books have interesting ideas but don't really hold together as well as stories - but the original series as a whole is still head-and-shoulders over any of the later stuff.

''All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us..."

Personally I would start with the original Dune, read through God Emperor of Dune, and stop there. The main story of Paul and his son is told at that point, and God Emperor of Dune is a good wrap-up. Frank Herbert wrote two more after that but he didn't finish the story arc he started in Heretics of Dune before he suffered Author Existence Failure.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick

I'd second this. Herbert's last Dune novels not only continue a story that had adequately wrapped itself up in God-Emperor, they're nearly an unbroken Gambit Pileup interesting only to the colorless factions and characters devising them. That, and yet more Duncan Idaho infestations—whom I never found a compelling character to begin with.

edited 15th Sep '17 12:18:31 PM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

I'll admit that Heretics and Chapterhouse were a bit of a slog, but then again so was God Emperor. I remember being stuck on it for a long time before finally deciding to push through, and I was rewarded with an opportunity for quite a bit of deep thought.

I won't pretend that it wasn't hard to transfer my interest to the new characters after so long with Paul, Leto, etc. I suppose that's one Doylist reason for Idaho to be included: because he gives the audience a focal point from the familiar past, acting as an Audience Surrogate in this respect.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Huh, I blasted through God Emperor surprisingly quickly—even for me, and I'm a fast reader—in part because it all seemed so familiar. New characters, yes, but new ideas seemed to be in short supply. I didn't mind—it was a quick read—but I was definitely underwhelmed.

The first and third are the ones I recommend. Unfortunately, if you're going to read the third, you really want to read the second, which isn't all that good. Fortunately, it's also fairly short. The rest I all rate somewhere between ok and meh. Whether you should read them depends, I think, on how you reacted to the first and third. If you loved them and didn't mind the second, then you'll probably think the rest are at least ok. If you only thought the first and third were ok, but not great, then you might not want to bother with the rest.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

So, the eternal question: what first, book or movie?

Optimism is a duty.

More like: which movie? The original one was something I saw long before I read the books, and it piqued my interest enough to get me started. I haven't watched any of the other series or films. As dopey as that movie is, it stays true enough to the fundamental ideas of the books to be worthwhile as a tasty introductory snack. It's also really good for memeing, if that's something you're into.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The miniseries (from 2000) was pretty good, despite its low budget, and the Children of Dune sequel miniseries was better.

I have the David Lynch movie. Is that easy to follow without reading the book?

Optimism is a duty.

See, that's a hard question to answer. The book is certainly a lot more coherent than the film, which gets really trippy in places and takes quite a few narrative shortcuts to keep its length down. You may be confused if you read the books and wonder where the sonic weapons are, which were completely made up for the film.

However, the film works as an effective outline for the story, hits most of the major beats, and provides a fantastic visual reference that sticks in my memory to this day whenever I think about Dune. Meanwhile, the book itself takes lengthy digressions into economics, politics, ecology, and religion that might seem quite dry depending on your tastes, but will give you a much deeper understanding of what in the buttery fucknuggets is going on. Also, since both reach the same ending, you will only be able to be spoiler-free once. So really it's up to you.

Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind about Dune is that Frank Herbert was really into world-building, to Tolkien-esque levels. The original novel was written to explore ideas about ecology, of all things, and the main driver of this is a secondary character who vanishes from the narrative about a third of the way in. Yet there are extensive appendices discussing everything he was involved in. Tolkien considered LOTR to be a minor episode in the history of Middle-Earth, and Dune is very similar. The main story serves the world-building, rather than the other way around.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 16th 2020 at 10:12:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I see there is a new Dune movie coming out this year, too.

Optimism is a duty.

I just watched the David Lynch movie, and man, that was... confusing. And a bit narmy. It's a good thing I had the Wikipedia summary close by, or else I would have been rather lost. And even then, some scenes still seem confused or rushed. Especially nea the end, things suddenly start happening in rapid succession to get to the end of the story. I can see why the critics lambasted it, but I can also see why it became a cult classic, because it still has some great moments.

Patrick Stewart is in this movie, and it is really hard not to hear Captain Picard every time he has a line...

I hope the 2020 version doesn't go for the "disgusting evil rapist gay fat man" stereotype for the Harkonnen baron. Yikes.

There's a lot of whispering in this movie. Luckily I could make out most lines, but no subtitles, so occasionally I couldn't quite get what was going on. Sprinkling the whispers with sci-fi terms without context did not help.

So wasn't Paul's sister supposed to be the Chosen One who would marry an Harkonnen and give birth to an Ubermensch or something? What was up with all that?

Also, do I get this right that this Sisterhood was trying to create the perfect woman... and it turned out to be a man after all?

Did anyone else notice that this is basically just another colonialist "going native" fantasy? The white colonialist hero who joins the natives, who have prophetized his coming as the Chosen One (basically their god), and who ends up fulfilling this prophecy, marrying the beautiful native woman who falls immediately for him. And of course he immediately appropriates their culture, too.

Oh, and they are Space Arabs, too, who control the most powerful fuel in the universe. And they fight the colonial empire with terrorist tactics. And those are the heroes. Not sure what to make of that.

Edited by Redmess on Feb 16th 2020 at 1:01:33 PM

Optimism is a duty.

Such good points you make. Sincerely. Okay, let's see what I can do with them.

Amusingly, I saw this long before ST:TNG, so I don't have that association. Maybe I would if I watched it again.

Me, too. That's probably my least favorite part of the David Lynch film. In the books, the Baron is fat and depraved, but not grotesque in the same way that the film portrays him.

Sort of. Bene Gesserit can control the sex of their children, and Jessica is instructed to bear a girl for Leto Atreides. This girl would be bred to Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen to produce a Kwisatz Haderach. Jessica defies her orders and bears a male child, who escapes the control of the Sisterhood. She later recants and bears a girl, Alia, but that goes haywire as well since she is pre-born.

Jessica's "sin" is that she falls in love with Leto. Bene Gesserit are supposed to control their emotions and do as instructed. Breaking this rule costs them their control of the Kwisatz Haderach and in turn their control over the destiny of the galaxy. Paul, in turn, commits the sin of falling in love with Chani, which breaks his resolve to see his vision to its conclusion (although that is more a theme in the second book than the first).

Oh, yeah. This is one of the big "have to read the books" points. Without spoiling too much, the Fremen are a huge social experiment in breeding a warrior culture that can be brought into fanatical allegiance to a religious prophet. In this, they are intentionally compared to the Sardaukar, the warrior-fanatics under the Emperor's control.

Sardaukar are raised on an incredibly hostile planet, learning to survive through sheer Darwinian brutality. When they mature, they are told they are the "chosen", intentionally put through these ordeals in order to become the perfect warriors. They are in decline at the start of Dune, as their self-image has caused them to become arrogant and decadent.

Fremen are their foil, with Arrakis as the "hostile breeding ground". The similaries to Arab culture are intentional, but not in a disrespectful way. It's difficult to tell, but Herbert considers them to represent a sort of purity of form and purpose, set against the wasteful decadence and political pomp of the rest of the galaxy.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 16th 2020 at 7:25:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Yeah... that's from the book. So maybe they'll fix it and maybe they won't, but it's not David Lynch's fault.

No, Paul was supposed to be a girl. Bene Gesserit like Jessica have complete control over their bodies, and can choose the sex of their child (not to mention whether to get pregnant in the first place). The conspiracy wanted Jessica to have a girl as the second-to-last step in their breeding program, but Leto wanted a son, and she loved him so she gave that to him. Which resulted in the Messiah coming a generation earlier than expected, out of the conspiracy's control.

It's a whole thing about genetic memory and how women can access the memory of their mothers but not their fathers, while men could access both but trying has never worked.

That was one hundred percent intentional in-universe. The Bene Gesserit spread myths to allow their agents to quickly blend in and take control of any culture they needed to, and separately they spread the myth of the Kwisatz Haderach (that's the Messiah) so that when they finally finished their breeding program the galaxy would be ready to bow before him. But again, he showed up a generation early and everything went out of their control.

'ed

Edited by Discar on Feb 16th 2020 at 4:20:35 AM