Existense of gods

To avoid derail at God proving himself Thread

ekuseruekuseru:

I'm intrigued. You said non-Abrahamic gods. Is that just because the topic was mostly on the Abrahamic god, or do you have a reasoning which makes all other gods impossible and yet doesn't do the same to the Abrahamic God?

Ok, let's start with Classical Greek since it's the mythology people are most likely to be familiar with. Zeus?

E:link cosmetics

edited 7th Oct '11 3:25:11 PM by Qeise

No evidence of existence whatsoever. TBH, that's an objection that you can apply to any God.

Greek gods are more clearly defined, mythology even gives an adress, while the concept of an abrahamic god is as fluid as the excrements of an dysentery sufferer.

Hence the thread. Myself am agnostic (atheist leaning) for that very reason. So when a claim for a way of disproving gods came up I wanted to find out what's it about.

We have a mountain in Greece which has the same name, yes. What makes you think mortals could just waltz in? Maby they lived on Olympus in the past, but have since then moved? Maby they Time Travel to Ancient Greece whenever they want to party on the ol' mount?

edited 7th Oct '11 3:40:07 PM by Qeise

If we go by the Buddhist definition of god we just need to find a sapient species of alien life to prove this shit. I'm looking for you Indian Klingons. ALWAYS LOOKING.

It's annoying when people confuse "no proof of God" with "no evidence of God".

Do note that "Olympus" is just the name for the residence of greco-roman gods; others use "Uranus", implying that the sky is where they live.

edited 7th Oct '11 3:42:36 PM by Gannetwhale

This agnostic theist agrees with you.

My point is that greek mythology fails to pass the reality check. A literal abrahamic god would to but most of the time people don't take it literally.

Better yet. That's a lot of room to miss them even if they had actual physical bodies.

You mean the God=Love=God crowd? Well that on the other hand stretches the definition of god.

edited 7th Oct '11 3:53:43 PM by Qeise

Then there's the theosophists who believe there's a deity residing above the Gobi desert.

Well, theoretically, I could worship the sea shell necklace that currently is wrapped around my headrest (I don't know why that is; it's been there for a really long time) and claim it as my god, and, exclusively speaking, my god would be real.

Now, I couldn't actually prove it has powers, and the fact that my "god" is real wouldn't really mean anything to other people...

So, once again, "god" as a general term is meaningless, and most specific historical gods are nearly impossible to prove or disprove to be real...

Well, clearly, the Greek gods do not exist because gods need prayer badly and Apollo is the only one remaining, and he's in space, looking for worshipers. But seriously, there's no reason that they couldn't exist, save for the lack of everyone alive being a superpowered demigod because of Zeus screwing everything that moved. The biggest argument against god(s) is Occam's Razor. We can explain the origin of the universe without god, and for the most part, any explanation that requires (a) god(s) is more complicated than one that doesn't because then you also have to explain where god(s) came from.

edited 7th Oct '11 5:40:17 PM by Balmung

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Just sayin'.

Nor is it reason to assume that the contrary must be true. Just as the fact that there is no evidence for a god doesn't mean that there isn't one, the fact the there isn't evidence against a god doesn't mean that there is one. The big problem is that gods are usually defined as to be an unfalsifiable hypothesis in the first place.

I never said it proves a god exists. Nor did I say this is my reason for believing in a god. I believe in God because I want to, evidence comes later.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Yes, but when you have no real reason for believing in the first place because there is no evidence...

The only reason I think there may be (a) god(s) is because the theoretical explanations for the beginning of the universe and life (not evolution, really, but the amino acid stuff) aren't satisfactory to the "well, how the fuck did it happen in the first place?" since "it just did" doesn't strike me as a good answer.

However, I would freely drop such a personal belief (which is mostly personal incredulity) in the face of evidence to the contrary. I, as an agnostic, simply do not think such proof is possible to obtain. Or, at the very least, not in any appreciably prompt time frame.

Gods don't have to exist to exist. They can exist while not existing.

When you're all powerful, you don't really have to follow the laws of consistency and logic.

Except there is evidence, just not proof as in a mathematical proof.

Occam's Razor might be the best argument against god(s), though it starts to get a bit thin in places imho—sort of an ironic use of Occam's razor considering William of Ockham himself was quite a theist. Also, iirc, the nontheistic argument would be that the universe always was in some form or another.

Either way its irrelevant, since Zeus didn't create the universe—the universe created Zeus.

Speaking as an agnostic atheist, I won't completely rule out the existence of a god or gods, but as I see no evidence for their existence, it seems silly to believe that they do. Besides, I resent the idea that I should submit my will to something just because it's more powerful than I am; the best course of action upon the discovery of non-Abrahamic gods (which are essentially Sufficiently Advanced Aliens) would be to rise beyond them and assert the will of humanity instead of bowing to a life of servitude.

With the Abrahamic God, all bets are off. We can't do anything against something all powerful and all knowing, so the only sane course of action would be compliance. If it were possible to free ourselves from its control, though, I would advocate following that path.

Belief in (a) god(s) does not constitute wanting to worship said god(s). I sure as hell wouldn't subscribe to such a ridiculous idea...

@Tiph: Evidence of which? Also, Citation Please.

Also, at least some nontheistic arguments argue that the universe and time began with the Big Bang. It also involves stuff like quantum mechanics and negative energy (space (the stuff that's not matter)).

edited 7th Oct '11 6:11:04 PM by Balmung

Hey, uh, let's not insult theists here. Because, uh, yeah, when people do that it kind of irritates me.