Why does China still support N Korea?

I can't imagine which is worse: watching two human waves battle each other if China did the heavy-lifting, or watching the individually-superior American troops get overwhelmed either way, and the war becoming a horrific quagmire of failed military theory and leadership...

"There's no reason for China to give in to American domination and suggesting it as 'wrong' to oppose the loss of sovereignty so that Americans can enjoy a better way of life at the expense of others is silly"

I never said it was right or wrong morally, just that I am surprised that China doesn't take the path of least resistance when Resistance Is Futile. No other country on Earth can really oppose America right now, nor is China going to be able to do so for the foreseeable future, so why are they even making the attempt? It's like the scrawny kid taking a swing at the bigger kids that bully him - its only going to make things worse for the scrawny kid. Not to demean China (don't take the metaphor too far, folks), but the reality is that America has a unique geo-political position that allows it to dominate all world markets, and you can't change geography no matter how hard you clap your hands and believe. China will never have easy navy access to the Atlantic Ocean, they do not share borders with friendly neighbors, and they have severe social issues which the government currently cannot address, both due to lack of funding and lack of desire by the ruling elite for change.

So why do things like support North Korea, or hint that if you do land on the Moon you might take the American flag off of the Eagle's flag pole and put up your own (all while stomping over Neil Armstrong's footprints), or build your own aircraft carriers, when it can only lead to hostilities against a power which you cannot possibly win against, and said power has shown little or no interest in Rape, Pillage, and Burn unless you severely get on its bad side?

I guess I just don't understand why the weak even try to resist the strong when the strong have shown only friendship, or at least ambivalence. I suppose that ideologies clashed for a time, sure, but that time has long since passed - nowadays America and Americans really don't seem to care that much about what the rest of the world is doing, so long as the rest of the world doesn't start throwing flaming airplanes into our cities, or messing with currencies, or not securing its borders, etc. We are like a beehive, I guess - bees won't mess with you unless you start poking their hive with a stick, so why mess with bees in the first place?

I think you have a... we'll call it skewed... view of what America has done in the world.

China has never unilaterally called on NK to get rid of nukes/missiles. It's always in the rubric of the six-party talks, which has its own political realities that China has to play to and manipulate.

I don't see why China's worried about America's military presence in the region. If war ever breaks out between the two, it's just gonna result in both countries being decimated by nuclear weapons; ground forces would be largely irrelevant.

We already went trought this discussion, Sigh.

China vs US derail/

edited 7th Oct '11 6:22:11 PM by Baff

But if military posturing by America and China is part of why China supports North Korea, then wondering why China bothers with the posturing is completely on-topic.

We've been over this before. China has insufficient nuclear weaponry to destroy the US. They are not the Soviet Union IN EAST ASIA 15000+ nukes and all. (They have about 500, most of them incapable of hitting US domestic targets.)

Perhaps it is, but I think all that there is to be said about the issue is in the China vs the US thread.

and Mayor Tom is right on this issue as he made me see in the above mentioned thread. They also dont have apropiate means of delivery of the loads.

edited 7th Oct '11 6:39:16 PM by Baff

China is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

On the one hand, North Korea is a valuable lackey with significant military firepower. Instead of trying to go bully people themselves, China can just send the North Korean strongmen after them.

On the other hand, North Korea is absolutely loathed by the international community, and China is trying to branch out and become more palatable to the Western powers, since they've got cash and China lives and breathes money.

However, they can't just drop Korea like they're hot, because it would cause all kinds of diplomatic troubles ("you left the North Koreans to bite the dust, so why should we want to support you?") not to mention that the North Koreans can turn all those lovely guns on the Chinese, since they're right there.

I think "the Americans will come get us otherwise!" is just a cover for them not wanting the North Koreans to come get them...

also millions of refugees and plenty of weapons that can be used by Chinese insurgents against the Communist regime, drug trade, general lawleness, a couple atomic bombs on the loose, you name it.

Yessir. North Korea is a brilliantly planned failure. I think Orwell would be truly astonished at how magnificently they've succeeded at creating the perfect, unassailable autocratic dictatorship.

The only way it can come down is from within, really. The international community, for all its talk, fears the inevitable collapse, and would never really want to try to do it from the outside. China is probably terrified of what could happen if they let North Korea fall.

It's less that they like the North Koreans anymore, and more like they've become the international equivalent of "too big to fail." In this case, replace "big" with "fucking insane and absolutely psychopathic."

edited 7th Oct '11 6:43:50 PM by USAF713

In Pyonyang people have actual radios spouting propagandathat cant be turned off . They can only lower the volume.

edited 7th Oct '11 6:48:59 PM by Baff

Oh they can be turned off. They just don't want to. (no matter what, you can either unplug them, remove batteries, or soak it with water and say the roof leaked.)

Well to be fair, USAF, China didn't create North Korea. They took advantage of a situation the Soviets and the Americans created.

If you look back at history, China just came out 1 year from the end of the civil war, with the Communists beating the Nationalists and driving them to Taiwan (where the Nationalists were busy setting up shop by killing everyone there). It's 1950, the North Koreans creamed through South Korea (realise that before 1980 that the North was better off economically and industrially than the South). The Americans obviously had to come in. So China was on edge.

American troops approached the Yalu river, which by all Chinese eyes was a straight on invasion. The American general already push through North lines, blew through all their cities and were now heading straight to the Korea-Chinese border. China was weak, it just came out of a major civil war and already suffered over twenty million deaths in the Second World War. The entire UN was backing the USA politically. It looked like USA was on the verge of global domination.

So 750 000 Chinese volunteered to fight in one day and they rushed to North Korea's aid. The Chinese pressed back the Americans all the way until international forces came in. Turks, Canadians, you name it, poured tens of thousands of soldiers each in there. The war became a stalemate.

Since then, the alliance that was created there has lasted. What was China supposed to do? It couldn't just abandon the North... it'd go back to the same problem... American forces flooding up straight to the Yalu river. Americans put nuclear missiles all across Europe to launch into Russia in under five minutes. The government felt it can't trust the Americans.

Now these days, China is more democratic and the people don't like North Korea, but they dislike USA even more. They don't want their bases any closer than they already are. China implements media bans on anti-americanism every time the USA sends a ship or plane straight into Chinese territory. I don't think the USA gets that the "USA is the devil" image is caused by American actions, not by Chinese propaganda (in fact, the government propaganda is pro-America to justify the trade relationship).

Your a little off there. while not out-and-out anti american, the government is anti-US in subtle ways. Like when A video game they usually would have banned came out, it had U.S. ad china factions. They approved it because it gave people a chance to "Fight the enemy". Or their drone demo video that showed it atacking a suspiciously American looking Carrier Battle-group