Christianity and Sin

There are countless different sects and divisions of Christianity that go beyond just being Catholic or Protestant, but it appears that all have a major focus on the nature of sin. The idea is that the first humans, Adam and Eve, committed a terrible (and in most divisions, an inherent) sin which has passed throughout humankind to this day. As a result, all humans are sinful unless they preach salvation (usually of course, to Jesus Christ). What I find problematic with this theme is that it may make people who worship their religion degrade their self-worth unless it ties towards being sanctioned by the one above. It could also lessen the importance of certain emotions, such as fear, doubt, despair and anxiety, by claiming that they are consequences of temptation or surrendering to indulgence.

That's the doctrine of Original Sin, which is not accepted by all Christian denominations, nor by all individual Christians regardless of their particular denomination. Many of those denominations which do accept the doctrine do not interpret it in the way you are suggesting.

"In other words, human beings do not bear any "original guilt" from Adam and Eve's particular sin. The prevailing view, also held in Eastern Orthodoxy, is that human beings bear no guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve."

Many folks nowadays (other than fundies) believe that we have lost an original unhindered relationship to God, and that we have to struggle to connect to him again. It's a process of spiritual development, a way of acknowledging that we are spiritually less than perfect. It shouldn't be a source of personal guilt, or undermine anyone's self-esteem.

Yes, this. Each human is guilty for his own selfish misdeeds, which we wouldn't make if our original connection to God was intact.

Humans being humans, it's been said that Original Sin is only Christian dogma with unimpeachable empirical evidence.

So we can't help but sin, but we're still guilty for it? BS. Culpability Does Not Work That Way.

Oh, but we can help it. As Beholderess would say, parasitic wasps have no culpability for killing other creatures by laying their eggs in them, because they can't do otherwise. It's a demonstrable fact that we can choose to be good. Each just person who exists condemns normal people by showing what they could be.

It's even worse than that really. By judging our wrong-doings in a spiritual sense instead of a pragmatic, almost consequentialist sense, what actually ends up happening is we often downplay the effect of what we do that hurts others.

edited 14th Sep '11 12:41:23 PM by Karmakin

Yes, because the Church totally has a monopoly on deontological ethics.

I have heard people strawman athiests by saying "Well if they don't believe in an afterlife/fear of god/etc, then they'll just do all sorts of horrible things!"

But maybe that isn't related to this, I dunno.

The problem is "just" people are defined differently from culture to culture. Being a "just" Aztec priest would involve regular heart ripping afterall, and that (usually) is looked down upon by people.

Of course not. And I'm quite willing to criticize any sort of arbitrary morality. But that doesn't change the fact that in our society, the concept of "Sin" is probably by far the largest representation of that type of thinking.

edited 14th Sep '11 12:47:59 PM by Karmakin

^^ Josef, what on earth does the Aztec religion have to do with Christianity and in particular, the concept of "sin" in Christianity?

edited 14th Sep '11 12:49:42 PM by Madrugada

Thorn@Big misconception is that Christianity will make you perfect.The point of Christinaity is to realize you are not perfect and see yourself as a sinner and to guide people to Christ but as you say not in a judgemental way.

The problem is that all too often (I'm not saying it's always the case. Just it tends to be the case) is that the particular concept of "perfect" has its eyes in the wrong place. It has its eyes up above to some nebulous deity instead of its eyes down here on the people around us.

Edit: I should add that's fine for some people who are able to "redirect" the eyes up attitude in a way that's helpful for other people around here, but it's neither the easy nor the obvious result in Christianity.

edited 14th Sep '11 12:54:27 PM by Karmakin

Thats what I was getting at. As the idea of a "just" person varies from religion to religion I just wondered how someone who was from a different culture could be anything like a "just" idea.

Sorry. I'll go away.

On a momentary basis, perhaps. But isn't one of the central points of Christianity that everyone sins at some point? That there is no way to live a life entirely without sin, because humans just aren't up to it?

Shorter version of (traditional) Christianity: God has set you an impossible standard. He knows it's impossible. But he'll still torture you forever for failing to meet it...unless you lick his boots. Why? Because, that's why—who are you to question God?

Nonsense. I haven't condemned you a bit.

@Karma: Taking the spiritual developmental perspective does not constitute a get out of jail free card. Christianity includes the concept that spiritual development involves love for all mankind- incompatible with ignoring the effects our actions have on others.

@Mad- I believe Joseph is implying that an Aztec Priest would be condemned according to Christian ethics, thus Christian ethics are arbitrary, and wouldn't reflect the will of a universal God.

The answer is that God is looking for maximum integrity given the prevailing ethics of your time and place.

It's called idealism.

@Karalora: Yes. Everyone sins at some point.

How traditional? Actual Greek-speaking clergy don't teach this eternal torture nonsense. Greek Orthodox dogma is that the Lake of Fire is what happens if you leave this realm of Becoming enter the realm of Being hating God. All are equally invited into the presence of His Uncreated Light, and it burns if you hate Him.

And if you blame God for inviting everyone into His presence equally like that, Catholic dogma is that He created a place for such people to have the eternal separation they'd prefer.

I was taught that if you dont follow God's strict rules and question him at all you burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. So does anyone who doesn't follow said rules, even those who never heard of them.

That was fun. Its the reason I became Agnostic.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:08:48 PM by Thorn14

You don't know whether God exists or not, because God as described to you isn't nice?

In that case, I'm agnostic on whether Stalin existed.

You probably don't want to get me started on my views concerning the Christian God and his so-called universal love. (It's not what you're thinking.)

My biggest issue with "sin" is actually that it's so poorly defined. What is sin? Anything God doesn't like. Well, are there are any guidelines for figuring out in advance what he will and won't like? No, not really.

And then you get into the heavy theology and it turns out that being "sinful" really just boils down to not being God. Gee, thanks a lot, God. You make a bunch of things that by definition aren't you, and then say you can't stand to be around them as long as they aren't you.

This is not the behavior I would expect from the exemplar of virtue.

Thorn@Did you grow up in one of those brimstone churches because they do no one any favors.The brimstone churches miss the point that hell is made to be away from God's presence.And heaven was made so that you can be in God's presence for eternity.The main thing that the brimstone churches is that faith with God is a relationship and he desires for us to put away our sins and come and have a relationship with us.

GOD knows we are not perfect but the main thing is that its your relationship with GOD that's most important.

No, it's the relationship with the people around you that's the most important.

@Karmakin: You're asserting your metaphysical assumptions as bald fact.

Christians are generally idealists (or their confirmation teachers didn't do a good job ).

I am a cynical idealist who looks at first to be a cynic but has a more happy outlook on life.

I can admit I am a sinner who can be sometimes judgmental,hypocritcal,and obnoxious but that's the point of Christianity its impossible not to sin so that's why we had Jesus die for out sin.