Sailor Moon

No, it would just be that part that would be jarring and disrupting the flow.

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Honorifics ARE PERFECTLY translatable

http://missdream.org/editorials/professional-translation-and-the-american-manga-industry/

Dont believe Weaboos.

Maybe to you it's jarring, but that hasn't stopped it from being used yet, so someone must think it's fine. And realistically speaking, this dub will be coming out on DVD and the internet. The odds of someone going out of their way to buy/watch this new uncut dub and not have any idea about honorifics/are horribly confused by them are slim to none. It would not kill the product.

It hasnt stopped shoddy translators, you mean.

And Viz Media already removed honorifics from their streams so the chances of them appearing in the dub are slim to none.

Fine, have it your way. Even though that article just said that honorifics were only a symptom of a larger translation problem, like incorrect word choice to fit the politeness level of speech. That does not mean honorifics are inherently wrong. I don't really care either way if they show up, but they can be learned quite easily.

Most of the time a dub can get by just fine without honorifics. Senpai is fine, -chan is optional, -san and sibling titles tend to have English equivalents, -kun is pretty much dropped.

Paying attention to the subs helps, cause that'll probably be the standard when dubbed. So far, no honorifics for SM.

edited 15th Jul '14 8:16:22 PM by PikaHikariKT

Unless it's Atlus translating Persona 4. They keep "-kun" and "-sama" in.

It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.

Persona is both the best and the worst case of using honorifics. They are appropiate because the game is a recreation of an anime, BUT its also awful because they altered the honorifics system.

For example, Naoto calls everyone with kun, but in the english version she only uses kun for Kanji. And other stuff. Basically the translator DIDNT feel like being true to the game's script,just what he felt would be better received among Japanophiles.

edited 15th Jul '14 11:29:45 PM by PrettyCoco

The issue with that is that, at least in the original anime, Makoto's greatest displayed feats of strength tend to occur when she's untransformed (and oddly enough, both in the first season). In her introductory episode, even before she gets her transformation pen, she lifts the monster of the week (a large, bulky one at that) over her head and held it for several seconds before throwing it a decent distance.

Similarly in the ice-skating episode, when the instructor tries and fails to life her over his head, she turns around and lifts him, holding him up with minimal apparent effort. This is after she's become Sailor Jupiter, but again undertaken in her civilian identity.

Her only major displays of strength when transformed (at least that I can think of) are in S when she and Uranus get into a brawl and while Uranus wins through superior speed, Uranus later shows Neptune that even just deflecting Jupiter's blows ripped right through her glove and tore up the back of her hand pretty badly. The other is in early Stars when Jupiter get's to play meat shield (quite literally) for a catatonic Sailor Moon.

Good link, Coco. If you're translating something, translate it. Don't skip stuff because they require thought to translate.

I don't think senpai is fine either. Sensei can work, but it's got different connotations in English, which at least to my understanding would be a martial arts teacher, or possibly a Japanese language teacher outside Japan.

I think they seem to gain a lot more in terms of resistance to damage than higher strength. Perhaps a little stronger, but it's never really emphasised, considering they're mainly using their special attacks and skills.

I also think that they just get naturally stronger with experience, since what they do is more physical work than what most of them had done before. Minako even claimed to train Usagi through their running late to school, which worked.

edited 16th Jul '14 4:07:13 AM by AnotherDuck

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I think Mako's just insanely strong. Whether that's because of her dormant abilities or completely natural is a mystery. And Minako trained in gymnastics and running frequently before she joined the team.

@Pretty Coco

I think you're speaking for yourself rather than fans dude. I mean Persona series in America is as big as Kingdom Hearts and I don't hear fans bitch about the use of honorifics. Also when Toonami came back we got FLCL a big ol juicy treat for anime fans that watched it back on Adult Swim.

EDIT:

The idea of trying to replace honorifics by making someone sound japanese and the era they're from (like the Ocean dub group having Kaede use terms like "Ye" and etc) is terrible.

@ Pika Hikari KT

Only a handful of anime I've watched do well without it. And those are the ones that don't coast their important pieces of dialogue on them. That's Saint Seiya,NGE,DBZ, Tenchi Muyo.

Pretty Coco, I have no idea why you're anal about it bro. It's no different than Americans using terms like "Mr" "Mrs." or addressing a co-worker or upper level work at a company.

edited 16th Jul '14 9:22:48 AM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Using terms like "Ye" is horrible any way you cut it.

Yes, Americans use terms like "Mr" and "Mrs" because they're speaking English, like the language a dub is supposedly translated to.

edited 16th Jul '14 9:42:09 AM by AnotherDuck

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@Another Duck

Although,it make sense that the culture which is being portrayed in a show it would make sense that honorifics are used by character that are Japanese. Shit, Hachiman from Thundercats used honorifics and he a fan-favorite.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Makoto's greatest displayed feats of strength tend to occur when she's untransformed (and oddly enough, both in the first season)

I remember an unstransformed display of strenght for Mako in the Super S season. When they are around a stage, a huge piece of the atrezzo is about to fall on the incredibly transparent civilian identities of the Amazon Quartet, and Mako catches it before it can crush them. The girls are amazed and comment on her strenght, which Mako brushes off with a comment on how they used to call her a 'Hercules woman'.

You know what would be even better? Since they're all Japanese, wouldn't it be awesome if they spoke Japanese all the time instead of just singular words here and there? Then it would be super-clear that they're actually Japanese. Can't wait for them to dub it to Japanese so everything makes more sense.

Never seen ThunderCats, but doesn't Hachiman actually speak English? As in, it's not dubbed? Also, it's a Hitler Ate Sugar argument. Him being a fan-favourite has nothing to do with justifying the lack of translation of something in a different work where they speak a different language. You could just as well say that any fan-favourite character who's Japanese-inspired and doesn't use any Japanese word is good reason to actually translate the words.

So, basically, every time Mako does something that requires Super-Strength, it's her doing it by herself, untransformed, and as such is no evidence that transforming gives them strength?

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I think it's worth remembering that Rei has untransformed miko powers.

When you think of their abilities as typical in the manga world (rather than judging them against actual normal people) it's not strange at all.

edited 16th Jul '14 1:20:34 PM by UltimatelySubjective

The phrase "perfectly translatable" is a gross exaggeration that glosses over the fact that even common Japanese honorifics have naunces to them — naunces that change the exact meaning of the suffix depending the context — that often get Lost in Translation. In other words, an adequate translation of the honorifics would have to be one that not only would capture those naunces, but would do so efficiently.

To give an example, the suffix -sama is used to refer to both company executives (by regular employees) and to aristocratic nobility. In the Western world, company executives are simply called by "Mr. [Insert surname]", just like any other stranger. Exactly how would you translate the suffix properly such that it's differentiated both from each other and when the same people who use those suffixes in those contexts also use -san to politely refer to other people (i.e. in more or less the same way that "Mr." and its non-English European language equivalents are typically used in the Western world)?

There is also the matter of occasions where the honorifics (and sometimes other Japanese-specific vocabular/grammatical elements) end up being used for puns that are truly untranslatable.

For example, in Yu Gi Oh GX, the character Jun Manjoume (dub name: Chazz Princeton) makes a point of insisting that those whom he regards as social inferiors should refer to him as "Manjoume-san". In Japanese, this takes the form of a de facto Catchphrase for much of the first arc: "Manjoume-san da" (or It's Manjoume-san). Fast forward about 20 or so episodes, and we see him repeating this same phrase to the new school that he had just become a member of... and the locals mistakenly think he's telling them to call him "Manjoume Thunder", because "thunder" in Japanese is pronounced sandaa. This eventually gives birth to his new Catchphrase and cheering cry: "Ichi! Juu! Hyaku! Sen! Manjoume... Sandaa!" (English: 1! 10! 100! 1000! Manjoume... Thunder! ^note The pun is that in Japanesw, the number "10,000" is pronounced man.)

You know what the English dub did? They changed it to him being called "The Chazz". I'll let that speak for itself.

And note that I have yet to even touch upon more archaic Japanese vocabulary/honorifics, like the suffix -dono, which is similar to -sama but normally used by the referred one's social equals (i.e. from one noble to another who's not too high or low in rank comparatively), whereas -sama is typically indicative of effective admission of your own social inferiority to the referred one.

EDIT: You know what? I think I'll just ask you to look at Sister Princess's title sister characters' unique ways of referring to their older brother, complete with a diverse range of suffix usage (or lack thereof), and see if you can adequately translate them into English, both without losing their naunces and without ending up with very awkward-sounding/looking results.

edited 16th Jul '14 1:41:06 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Dub Luna! >^.^<

This debate on whether English translations should keep honorifics or not is starting to get too mean-spirited for my tastes.

How many in a Western audience would actually catch the nuiances in all those suffixes, as compared to even a rough translation? I've seen a lot of anime, almost all of it subbed, so I actually hear what suffix they use most of the time, and I can't separate most of those at the speed they're said when you actually watch an episode.

In that specific example, considering they're all different, I'd guess they're different specifically for the sake of being different, rather than to reflect the exact tone in language. And there's a lot more to the tone in language than what suffix they use.

I'd rather ask you how you can leave them in without them sounding awkward.

Cherry-picking examples where the translators didn't do a great job translating isn't an excuse for others not to bother. And translating puns is a problem no matter what part of language you're talking about, so that's not exactly a special case. I mean, you can reasonably expect an anime fan to know what "-san" means, but "sandaa"? No way. As such, that pun wouldn't have worked anyway.

Translations aren't done for people who know the language. They're done for those who don't. If you're required to learn Japanese suffixes to watch an anime in English the translators haven't done their job. That's really all there is to it.

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My thoughts exactly. The title of this thread is "Sailor Moon", not "Honorifics in Dubs".

Anyway, while it will take time to get used to it, I think I'm going to like Michelle Ruff's Luna. "You don't actually believe a single word I'm saying, do you?" The way she said that line made me laugh.

edited 16th Jul '14 3:39:00 PM by DS9guy

Michelle Ruff sounds awesome as Luna. And I'm already used to Usagi's new voice.

You guys think Viz is planning to release a clip of every senshi in English by the time the DVD comes out?

Why dont call him Mr Manjoume?

You guys think Viz is planning to release a clip of every senshi in English by the time the DVD comes out?

Likely Mercury and Mars (and maybe the baddies!), but we might have to wait a bit for Jupiter and Venus since they're in the second set.

edited 16th Jul '14 4:13:58 PM by PikaHikariKT