DiabolusExMachina: Diabolus Ex Machina

Now, for some reason, Eddie's decided that all trope names must be English or loanwords, which certainly excuses Deus ex Machina. This, however, is neither and lacks the bonus of being an established term from outside. Therefore, as it's in Latin and the literal meaning of the words—translated or not—is nonsense, It should be renamed. Despite, for the most part, working.

641 wicks, 2,171 inbounds.

On a note that's less to do with admin policy, there seems to be some measure of cleanup required in the description. It goes on about Diabolus ex Machina ensuring a Downer Ending as a requirement but then says it's not needed. In that case, why go on about the ending? It's certainly used without reference to endings.

... Oops, got the article and title boxes confused. <_<

edited 11th Sep '11 9:13:44 AM by RainehDaze

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It's not in Latin. It's in English words that are in English dictionaries that happen to have Latin roots. The two are not the same thing. It means the Devil In The Machine and it's not a phrase we made up. It's a literary analysis term and it makes perfect sense in the same way Deus ex Machina does.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

According to the Oxford Dictionary, Machina only works as Deus ex Machina—there's an automatic redirect—and Diabolus isn't a word. Also, ex- is only listed as a prefix.

This doesn't seem to be a pre-established term, at least not in the UK. And it is not in 'English words with Latin roots'. It's in Latin.

Not to mention that 'Devil in/from the Machine' has nothing to do with the trope, at all.

edited 11th Sep '11 9:19:47 AM by RainehDaze

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How is this trope different from an Outer Limits Twist?

Diabolus is a word. And the whole phrase is clear to any English speaker. As shimaspawn said, it is also a valid literary analysis term. Machina means scheme, seige engine, and machine, and is not only exclusive to the phrase. The trope name has everything to do with the trope; it helps get across the fact that this is the opposite of Deus Ex Machina. You've got no ground to stand on here.

edited 11th Sep '11 10:55:32 AM by DisasterGrind

Compound words and phrases can be loanwords just the same as individual words can.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

No, diabolic is an English word. Diabolus is not. Similarly, Machina is not an English word and the last meaning—scheme—is actually machinations. Combine those two meanings and you basically have 'evil scheme'... which has nothing to do with bad things happening for no reason.

Yes, Deus ex Machina is a loanword. Diabolus ex Machina isn't.

Also, google search of Diabolus ex Machina is turning up some incomprehensible things. Like albums. And chapter names.

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It's different in that Outer Limits Twist is a trope exclusive to nefarious twist endings.

No, no... let's do this. Let's go ahead and change all foreign-language titles that aren't English loan words, regardless of how understandable they are, how clear they are to any rational being, how based in English the title is, and regardless of the majority of editors for whom the phrase is clear as a bell.

We can start with Tsundere, which is, after all, a much more... aheh, excuse me but this really is the best word... Egregious example than Diabolus ex Machina.

edited 11th Sep '11 11:05:09 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

Voting against rename...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Since that looks like it's going to happen anyway, nothing changes. And this title, once again, is both not based in English and not related to the literal meaning in the slightest.

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Even Wikipedia and Wiktionary don't recognize the phrase(or "diabolus" as an English word), so the only things the name has going for it are its usage and snowclone status.

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan

Smash Any Happy Ending?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Inexplicably Went Wrong? XD

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I'm against a rename, but that one's not bad.

edited 11th Sep '11 12:37:08 PM by DisasterGrind

In general, I'm against any rename when the call for the rename was made as an act of retribution against "perceived" injustice.

That isn't bad, now that I think of it.

edited 11th Sep '11 12:39:06 PM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

Again, that was something I was dying to say, but didn't because I didn't know how to word it politely.

Sounds too much like Murphy's Law.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Contrived Downer Ending

Although, agreeing on "punitive rename is punitive."

I am now known as Flyboy.

This isn't 'retribution', this is applying Eddie's logic to another trope. The exact same reasons for renaming apply, so why should one stay and the other not? Rules aren't meant to be selectively applied.

Isn't Murphy's Law generally logical, though? It requires that there's something that can go wrong, after all.

edited 11th Sep '11 12:43:35 PM by RainehDaze

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Actually, rules are meant to be broken, which we routinely do at this fine establishment.

I am now known as Flyboy.

"The exact same reasons for renaming apply, so why should one stay and the other not? Rules aren't meant to be selectively applied."

Because one is easilly understandable to anyone reading in engliche because it is from one of the languages english is based upon. The copy/paste logic doesn't really work when you're applying it to a language the one you're speaking is based on.

Actually, English is a Germanic language and not descended from Latin, it just stole words from whatever it came into contact with. End result: proliferation of words with Greek and Latin roots. The literal meaning of Diabolus ex Machina—Devil from the Machine—also has absolutely nothing to do with the trope*

. The trope, after all, is about terrible things happening for no reason other than to make things worse.

And ex-, for a start, doesn't mean 'from'. It has lots of meanings but that's not one of them.

edited 11th Sep '11 1:16:17 PM by RainehDaze

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And either way, English stole its vocabulary from French, which in turn was heavily influenced by Frankish. The Latin connection isn't as strong as you think(even "ex-" came from French).

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan

Trying to pretend that there's some hard-and-fast rule about "no non-English names" is disingenuous. There's a rule about non-informative names. Japanese is too alien to most English-speakers to be at all memorable. As a casual visitor to the site, I used to have to click on nakama every freakin' time I saw it — and I've been a casual anime fan since the eighties! There's no clue in the Japanese names to hang an association on, so the name won't stick with you.

In this case, however, "diabolus" is pretty clearly related to English words like "diabolical", and "deus ex machina" is a standard and well-known phrase, which makes the whole thing relatively easy to remember after you've looked at it once, at least by comparison with the random syllables of most gratuitous Japanese. The analogy fails completely.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.