Duplicate trope: Four One Nine Scam

As the trope page itself states, 419 Scam is exactly the same as Spanish Prisoner, On The Internet! The trope page for Spanish Prisoner also points this out.

Tellingly, most examples on Spanish Prisoner are in fact about the 419 scam, and indeed several examples are on both pages. Even funnier, the 419 scam itself is actually listed as an example in the New Media section of Spanish Prisoner.

This strikes me as two pages depicting the same trope. Any thoughts on how to fix this?

It gets worse. That whole thing about "on the Internet"? That's not true! The 419 scam predates the Internet (or at least widespread access to the Internet). It started with snail mail and faxes. Both are actually simple variants of Advance fee fraud, and the only real difference is the details of the information used to sucker the mark.

I would suggest merging them both to Advance Fee Fraud, making that a general description of the concept, followed by brief explanations of these two well-known variants. Keep both existing names as redirects.

I read the first couple paragraphs of both, plus this thread. I am no expert on either of this trope (poor grammar used intentionally), but I see enough evidence that:

I support the merge under the name "Advance Fee Fraud".

Just leave 'em alone. We're defining terms. Both names are widely used. We improve nothing by selecting some third term.

Er... if there are multiple names for the same thing... isn't that what redirects are for?

I don't understand your remark. Your sig says that "concise" is a goal; surely having one page on the topic is more concise than two pages on the same topic? Of course all established names should point to that one page.

Yeah, sorry Eddie, I'm with everyone else. Merge under Advance Fee Fraud, have Spanish Prisoner and 419 Scam as redirects. We don't need two pages for the exact same trope, and we can always define both minor variant terms on the same page.

edited 8th Sep '11 8:12:04 AM by Jeysie

Thirding the Ridiculously Similar Trope argument.

I can see one (to me) rather substantial difference in how the two are used in works: The Spanish Prisoner is often used to drive the whole plot. The 419 is usually used to either add a bit of characterization (if the character falls for it, they're a fool, or they're smart/aware/cautious and don't fall for it.) or as a joke, but it rarely drives the plot.

edited 8th Sep '11 9:57:38 AM by Madrugada

I'm with Foxy mod. The difference isn't in what the scam is. It's in how it's integrated into the plot. If the plot revolves around the con, they're going to call it The Spanish Prisoner and the work is going to focus on the con.

If it's just a 419 Scam then it's going to be a throw away gag to show that a character is dumb and really just be a one off joke.

The examples on both pages don't seem to agree with that notion, though.

They have a grand total of 40 wicks between them. Slightly tweaking their definitions to improve the distinction wold be no big deal.

FWIW, the Other Wiki does have a separate article on Spanish Prisoner.

Adding crowner by request.

Personally I think they are usefully distinct. Spanish Prisoner has a more general wording, in effect describing the supertrope. (I also agree with Maddie's characterisation of it.) 419 Scam is more focused on a well-known modern scam that's embedded as a go-to internet fraud trope.

^ This. I would support simply treating 419 Scam as a specific variant and subtrope of Spanish Prisoner, while retaining the separate pages.

I don't think they should be merged, for the reasons stated above (edit: by Madrugaga, plot driving versus gag) - although as definitions you could easily put them under the same heading, as tropes they tend to be used in works in different ways.

edited 20th Oct '11 3:16:13 AM by Atalan

Regardless of what we think they should be, the examples they have attracted in the past indicate that numerous tropers do use them interchangeably.

Spark, we don't generally change the definition to suit the bad examples. How many legs does a dog have, if you call his tail a leg?

My point is that if a handful of people in this thread see a difference, but the internet at large does not, then the end result will be misuse. Sometimes a soft split is better than a hard split, especially where there's only a technical difference between two types.

Twice as many votes oppose the merge. I think it's time to call this off.

We'll still need to clean it up and tighten the definitions.

Calling the crowner. No consensus to merge.

I tried my hand at cleaning up the examples and wicks for the two tropes and I added bits to their descriptions to try to distinguish the two more. I would definitely appreciate feedback on that stuff though.

edited 1st Mar '12 8:59:31 PM by LouieW

Advance Fee Fraud and 419Scam are one and the same. Spanish Prisoner is a specific subtrope, though.