The American Dream

Is the American dream dead? If it is, what killed it off? Was it deindustration? The end of the Cold War? the Rise of China?

If it isn't dead, why does it appear to be damm hard to lift yourself from the bottom of society? or am I missing the point because I live in Euroland and teh American dream is still strong?

Dutch Lesbian

^ The Dream still lives and it was never easy to attain. Only those with the willpower, drive to work for it and a little bit of luck have achieved it. You can't legislate it to happen to everyone.

So, Tom, should the US federal government have systems in place to catch those who fail or dont try to achieve the American dream?

Dutch Lesbian

Not really. Failure is the best teacher, I know that firsthand. Take away the risk of failure with a social safety net and people never learn.

Can you expand on this? I've seen that argument alot but Europeans have had a welfare system for almost 70 years and it hasn't stopped people from trying. Heck, I think it offers a better chance of risk taking because theres something to catch you if you fail.

Dutch Lesbian

The American Dream seems alive and well, as people keep failing to face the American Reality.

edited 1st Sep '11 5:53:45 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

What is the American Reality then?

Dutch Lesbian

That there is a giant hierarchy of people in a pyramid, and the vast majority of people necessarily have to make up the base. There's the concept that anybody can try for the top but they refuse the reality which is that there's usually only a select few at the top and they're the same families/people over and over again.

Now the interesting part is that every acts as if they were actually in that top portion. Of course, as we know, 50% of the bottom half of Americans control 1% of the country's wealth. So for the vast majority of people fighting for the rich... makes no sense. In fact it makes no sense for 99% of Americans.

That's not to advocate something as extreme as communism but it does create a valid case to argue against the American Dream, in the sense that, we shouldn't be giving breaks to the rich under the strange "I could be rich one day" assumption. Especially considering that by most metrics, European countries outstrip America in terms of social mobility by far.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130395070

http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4?op=1

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph - this one in particular.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

The last infographic was published in the Guardian IIRC.

It explains a lot.

I remember saying that the first thoughts of a European on America is "sitcoms, films, rock & roll and Vegas, never was it ever freedom, individual, or equality".

edited 1st Sep '11 7:24:27 AM by Inhopelessguy

The "American Dream" was never about becoming rich. It was about becoming comfortable. There's a huge difference. And it's something that wasn't unique to America, but right now, it is something that is actually less possible in America than other countries.

The retirement of the boomer generation should offer a temporary and possibly permanent reprieve, however.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

I still hold it as "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Now, happiness is a difficult thing to measure, and means different things to different people. It can be raising a family, getting rich, expressing yourself, living comfortably, or just what you feel like at this particular moment (the latter which is notoriously fickle, and influenced as easily as whether or not you've eaten in the last few hours, or if you just had a recent setback). The key then, is the ability to pursue and maintain it whenever possible.

It also means that social safety nets don't necessarily inhibit such a pursuit. My wife is currently fighting tooth and nail for unemployment benefits because her former employer is issuing a denial claim for frivolous reasons, and doing so while interviewing for jobs and freelance writing. Her dream is to be a successful writer, and while I encourage her to seek a "day job", she doesn't abandon the effort to write, nor deny that unemployment benefits are not needed. Indeed, her aspiration to succeed would increase if/when she wins this dispute, not decrease.

In conclusion; the American Dream is not dead.

The American Dream was always a fantasy. And yet, it is still alive and well.

The American Dream is nothing tangible. It doesn't even exist, really. It is a lie of omission.

If there was a single quote in pop-culture history that ever summed up the true purpose of the American Dream it's from Han Solo:

"Never tell me the odds."

The American Dream isn't about accomplishing anything. It's mind over matter. Tell yourself the odds are better than they are, and you go farther.

The Centipede Fallacy, basically.

I am now known as Flyboy.

I blame Alexander Hamilton for turning things around. America was a symbol of liberty and new horizon, up to the Declaration, and Hamilton, who blatantly said government should be away from the people and controlled by the elites, cared only about making the nation stronger and not its constituents.

I think the Dream was quite alive in past history when America had distinct frontiers, but lately America's been in a decline and the effectiveness has diminished.

Now using Trivialis handle.

Well, the American Dream, once again, is very subjective. I do agree, though, the truest Americans were the pioneers, by far.

Hamilton... and the Declaration? That's... kind of distinct, you know. I'm not even sure Hamilton had anything to do with the Declaration. If you mean the Constitution, well... that was mostly Jefferson. Who also believed the elites should rule, mind you. Many of the framers did. They were the elites, remember.

Besides, Hamilton's political career got cut short early. I kind of wish he'd survived longer. Him + Jefferson as counterbalances to each other would have been phenomenal...

I am now known as Flyboy.

The american dream in that sense was basically "fuck you. I dont care about treaties or fairness as long as I have my gun and my own land UI can shoot you for being on. even if I stole said land"

edited 1st Sep '11 2:06:11 PM by Midgetsnowman

I mean that from the Colonies to the Declaration and Revolution, America was about liberty. Then Hamilton came along and things changed. That's what I don't like about Hamilton, since he basically opposed all forms of liberty and only cared about power growth of the nation.

He basically went against everything that was the American Dream.

Now using Trivialis handle.

Thats a pretty vacuous term, though. The colonies changed because we tried more liberty. Its called the articles of confederation. What we learned is when you allow taxes to be optional and states to be essentially independent nations, none of them pay taxes and they all hate each other and NOTHING ever gets done.

edited 1st Sep '11 2:10:05 PM by Midgetsnowman

Hamilton had a point. You know, new nation, hated by the resident superpower, and with the other major powers just waiting for us to fall to pieces so they could take over the pieces.

Besides, he wasn't really opposed to all liberty, he simply didn't believe in the same liberties as Jefferson. He died defending our country. You can't tell me he didn't love liberty...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Well, something got lost in the translation. While US did need a stable working government, Hamilton's ideals pushed things way too far. Imagine if Hamilton and his group ran unopposed. America would lose all sense of what it gained in independence.

Madison, a Federalist who chiefly wrote the Constitution, later stood against the High Federalist Hamilton who pushed forward for power nonstop. IMO Madison was the one that had the right idea about balancing a proper government.

Everything I read said that Hamilton saw the independence of America as simply an opportunity to become its own powerful nation, ruled by its own elites instead of the English monarch's. He favored allying with Britain as soon as the government was set up. He opposed Bill of Rights because "they were unnecessary" and expanded congressional powers to do whatever. He even attacked Adams for not following his agenda enough and that led to the beginning of downfall of his party. His death was because of his opposition to Burr. Overall I see his actions as haughty and reckless.

In summary, we probably would not have any room for opportunities for the common American if we let him continue ruling the nation.

?? I didn't know that. Where did you learn that? I thought it was a personal feud between them.

edited 1st Sep '11 9:34:29 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.

...actually, Madison made one of the worst Presidential decisions in American history. He was an idiot, really, if we're talking in terms of policy.

Of course Hamilton would have been bad if we let him do whatever. Jefferson would have been so, too. They were opposites. Take both, and you get a good compromise from brilliant minds.

America would have been a lot better of a place—and the American Dream would have been much closer to a real possibility—if the Founders hadn't fucked up quite as bad as they did after the Constitution and the first couple of Presidents...

Edit: Well, allying with Britain would have been a really good idea, actually, since, you know, superpower and all.

Burr wanted to secede. Hamilton died to make sure that never happened. Insofar as I care, he's a martyr for American national unity.

edited 1st Sep '11 2:23:23 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Of course it's not dead. Wishful thinking never dies.

It's also fairly good at killing people and breaking morale.

edited 1st Sep '11 8:55:51 PM by Tongpu

I find it rather amusing that people think they can sum up an idea like the American Dream, something that's evolved through rapidly changing economies and wars, in a few sentences as well as determine whether or not it's dead or alive like it has a binary state.

The American Dream is a lot of things and has been around long before the term was actually invented. You might say it started with the Puritians that landed in North America, wanted freedom to practice their religion and having the opportunity to do so. Of course, this isn't to say having freedom and opportunity is necessarily what defines the American Dream. For me, it's always been three things: "Think, work, reap". The unique thing that the United States first introduced to the world was a rapidly changing economy, allowing much easier upward (and downward) vertical movement in the economy.

In theory, with enough hard work, you could climb from poverty to being wealthy since everyone given the ability to improve their standing. In reality, well, working hard isn't really enough since you also need a set of skills to reach peak. Granted, we have an education system and public libraries among other things, but they can definitely use some work. The important thing is, though, that those skills are available for free to learn (shut up Tomu, even paupers have time to spend and I'm about to get to that point). However, you can't make a horse drink the water you lead it to and even if it does drink, it can still starve. Due to needs like food and stuff, people may not think they have the time to train themselves or feel that it's a waste. Me personally? I found that life manages to give you what you need if you think and work hard enough, but that's the difference between me and the average person, the ability to think. Learning these skills are hard unless you already have skills behind those skills to support your endeavor.

For children, this isn't that hard to overcome, for adults, shit's in the gutter. Unless you know about government grants and other money related stuff but then again, lacking the skills and knowledge to know and use that stuff. Of course, once you get out the gutter and obtain even a moderate set of skills, job opportunities open up. As you may already guess, there's yet another set of skills needed to get a job, along side (a lot of) work to actually get said job. Rinse and repeat.

The problem is that people tend to lack one of those two things, the ability to think and adapt or the ability to work and be persistent, either due to personal reasons or financial reasons. The American Dream for me is, yes, very much achievable for everyone but I'm not about to pretend it's equal difficulty for everyone, which would strike me as rather fundamental in such an ideology. For this generation, it's going to require a lot more work and skill to obtain vertical movement due to the economy. How the government should handle this to best help everyone along isn't exactly agreed upon but let's be brutally honest here for the nay sayer: The American Dream isn't dead, it's just a really hard to reach goal that needs an extensive set of tools to get to but at least it's there. Other countries may be doing it better than us right now, but we were the first to really come up with it and it's what cause the United States to boom as well as it has in the past.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.

The American dream as it used to be is dead. What it is now is based more on the reality. The sad fact is it takes much more then honest hard effort to achieve it. You need a combination of luck and connections. Your degrees can get you dick even if your a Ph D in the top of the class. If you don't have the right connections and right luck you will get nowhere.

Who watches the watchmen?

Yeah, it has changed, we're in a world that needs communication. Now, quit dicking about and learn to talk. The most important skill in today's economy is to be able to leave an impression with words. Employers/Grant givers/etc don't have time to watch you work. You need to be able to demonstrate your skill and ability to work well and hard in a matter of minutes. Connections aren't necessarily luck, get friendly, learn to say hello and thank you to the various people currently standing a head taller than you, people want to see someone who's honest and charismatic, not just well trained.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.