Russia vs. the EU

Which would never happen.

^ Given the growing anti-Europe sentiment here, I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years or less a firebrand politician comes to the Presidency and leaves Europe flapping in the breeze in every possible diplomatic, military and economic way regarding the old setups.

Today? Obama's too much of a wuss to side against the Russians. He wouldn't commit to anything unless the Congress declared war and forced him to.

Anti-European sentiment? Yes. But there's Britain.

Europe isn't my problem, but I'd commit to help Britain. Now, if Britain decides it wants the EU more than the US, than no hard feelings, but that assured help goes away, too.

If the special relationship is dead, than you're scenario is realistic. If not, we're going to end up in this war, and on Britain's side, simple as that.

edited 18th Aug '11 4:10:19 PM by USAF713

Well even if war did break out, it's hard to imagine that the USA would react immediately anyway depending on the context. If it was the Russian bear raising the Soviet flag again and attacking Europe today, I think the USA would assist immediately.

If it were say 10-20 years from now, and the US has closed most of its bases in Europe, it'll be like the world wars again. USA will sit there for years thinking whether they should go in or not, while selling weapons.

Indeed, if the EU and US continue to drift apart, we will have less and less of a reason to bother.

Unless we're still friends with Britain.

If so, we'll go rushing in like fools, as always, and with good reason: Britain is the last country left in the godforsaken peninsula with a connection to us worth saving. But only if they want our help. If they decide they want Europe's friendship and not the US's, well, I'm fine with that. But then it isn't worth the lives and time to go and help the EU against Russia, simple as that.

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edited 12th Aug '13 12:43:46 AM by Breakerchase

The point being that, nowadays, even without Washington support, there's no way Russia could invade successfully the EU, unless they managed to destroy all our nukes and pull off a blitzkrieg supported by tacnukes.

Without that, the only true difference between US support and isolationism is that in the first case, the frontline would be a little bit more to the east, while in the second case, it would probably be at the German/Polish border, causing more damage but ensuring that, in the long term, Europe would become truly united. US support WAS necessary in the Cold War. Now, it would be a very nice thing, but not a survival item as some here may like to think.

And, anyway, I believe that even if we didn't get US troops, you'd probably start another "Cash & Carry" arm market (isolationism may be good, but profit has always been better in US eyes) for everybody. Too bad that Russian ships would be sunk at the GIUK zone.

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edited 12th Aug '13 12:44:02 AM by Breakerchase

To be honest, I'm more worried about the Ukraine. They've got absolutely no protections from larger states, and Russia could pretty much waltz in there unopposed. The EU might scream its head off about it but I doubt they'd actually do anything to kick the Russians out.

Well, Ukraine isn't in the EU, AFAIK, and it's clear we couldn't do anything to protect them from being invaded. But, on the other hand, if they pull off something like that, expect military budgets to climb sky-high in Western Europe, as well as a shift to a military alliance rather than an economic one. Expecially if the US are moving to an isolationist stance.

Wait, wait, wait... Americans honour the Special Relationship more than we do?

We think its some bloody sham.

I salute you, USAF.

Well, I'd like to think I speak for the country at large when I say we'd come in to help Britain, but I can't confirm whether that's entirely true or not...

I'd volunteer in your army if the US didn't come to Britain's aid, though...

My friend, if I was an immigration official, I would give you a Blue Card (official citizenship of the EU) and give you a brown passport with "European Union - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" on it.

But I'm not, and will not be, so you gotta keep wishing.

Indeed, but remember, we wouldn't be there for the EU, we'd be there for Britain (and, probably, the little Eastern European countries). Let's just say that the EU isn't particularly popular here that much anymore and leave it at that...

Which is exactly why we're turning to China.

I must admit, USAF, I'm fearful of Chinese influence into Europe as you are, but the fact is, the money they give us is just simply money. Nothing else.

So you say. Time will tell us if you're right. In the meantime, I'd say you shouldn't be thinking about fighting the Russians at all. If the Russians and EU can put their dicks away and work together, you might not even have to worry about China anymore...

USAF, Russia is basically an autocracy (sorry to the Russian tropers I know are on the forum somewhere, but its the truth.) Why shouldn't we put them in the same camp as China?

Because the Russians don't have 1.3 billion units of manpower, a complete lack of anything that would impede businesses from treating those people like crap, and the ability to utterly crush your economy in the long-run.

There are 142 million Russians. You can compete with that. You can't compete with 1.3 Chinese.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:24:17 PM by USAF713

I agree with points 1 and 3, but point 2... well, I don't know a lot about safety regulations and the like in Russia, but the corruption is so bad there...

EDIT: An alliance of convenience then?

edited 19th Aug '11 1:24:43 PM by GameChainsaw

Well, Russia probably isn't that much better, but they are technically a democracy, and I see the people eventually kicking the corrupt people out. China doesn't even pretend.

Basically, yeah. Idealists finish last in world politics. Befriend those who are useful to defeat those who will otherwise crush you, even if they are barely any less morally questionable...

edited 19th Aug '11 1:26:42 PM by USAF713

China has its own elegant solution for corruption *

Well, Russia and the EU would be a hard force to stop...

Russians ask Bulgarians that they stop hilariously vandalizing Soviet monuments.◊

I hope they don't.

Unless the US leaves NATO we would automatically get involved.