On what basis are gay guys assumed to be feminine?

Even if they don't have a problem with gay people such thought depresses me greatly at times. As I said 'I'd hope' that such views are not the prevalent one in society even if it were not the case. Anyway I guess the best attitude to take for me would be 'who gives a shit about what society thinks'

I guess. I don't know, personally I never had a problem with laws against actual discrimination, but social engineering... bothers me. Sure, they're insulting, but free speech and all. If they don't actually do anything, there's nothing we can or really should do, legal-wise. Not that ignoring it isn't a good idea, but still.

Care to explain what you know about the apparent debate from within the LGBT community over camp v. straight? I read that it's actually a big deal and that there are arguments back and forth over which is "better?"

edited 17th Aug '11 8:35:35 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

I'm guessing you mean LGBT community rather than communist.

Well I've only been out recently so I haven't had too much involvement in the whole scene. However I do read up quite a bit about it and I have come across the idea that camp gays may be adverse to non-camp gays because being camp has become a characteristic of our community, it makes us distinct and that by referring to yourself as 'straight acting' you are in some way being fake and instead of embracing your homosexuality you are still partly closeted.

On the other hand I guess non-camp gays feel that we have moved on from the old days and that continuing to act camp is just perpetuating these old stereotypes and that it makes a big deal out of ones sexuality which should only be a part, not the defining characteristic. I guess some have a desire not to stick out.

Interesting article I found relating to this topic http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/30/the-end-of-camp-straight-acting-gay

As for your point of social engineering? I do not agree with the idea that everyone in society must conform to the same doctrine and that dissent from this doctrine should be punished but at the same time I think a bit of education to set straight something that is misunderstood is the way for society to progress. You may still not like homosexuality but at least then it is not based on ignorance.

edited 17th Aug '11 8:38:44 AM by PiccoloNo92

HOLY SHIT Fail typo is fail.

I'm still thinking of Perry/Bachmann/Romney's new McCathyism for gay people, I guess. The bastards...

Also, hm. That's interesting. What a strange debate to have, superficially.

I am now known as Flyboy.

I think the biggest problem in the community regarding camp v. straight is both "sides" accusing each other of not being true to themselves, when that just isn't true majority of the time.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.

No problem I am gay and significantly to the left, but not quite a communist Also gay Mc Carthyism? Can't say I've heard of that but from simply reading the name Bachmann I think I get the idea. Has there been a discussion on it somewhere on here? And I've heard Bachmann has been pretty quiet on the issue lately, especially after her husbands clinic was seemingly found to be performing curative measures for gay patients

And yeah it is a pretty silly argument. I personally don't care what a persons characteristic is. I don't identify as camp and effeminate just because that isn't in my nature and I can't try and project that onto others. Doing that would make me no better than all those bigots out there.

Kinda what I want to say. The argument is ridiculous because everyone is different and sexuality isn't the defining characteristic of a someone's personality. Being true to myself is playing rugby, videogames and sci-fi, whilst I know other gay people who have greater interests in fashion.

edited 17th Aug '11 8:50:49 AM by PiccoloNo92

[1]

This is most likely a major reason. People might not be able to tell that a Straight Gay person is straight without the topic being brought up. Or something like that.

something

It's either in the Bachmann thread or in the 2012 Elections thread...

edited 17th Aug '11 8:50:23 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Even then, what about things that fit into neither manly nor womanly standards of behaviour? For example, the Friend to All Living Things archetype is associated with women, but it typically doesn't include bugs and spiders, which women are stereotyped to hate. What if a guy found bugs and spiders cute, talked to them in Baby Talk, etc... would that be manly or womanly or neither?

Oh, and USAF, what "McCarthyism" are you referring to?

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

The kind of taking people in for interrogation and to intimidate them for either being or sympathising with communists. Except replace communist with LGBT and you get another one of those delightful GOP presidential pledges.

I don't want to be too reactionary over it, especially as I don't live in the US, but such a thing does make me quite sad.

Clearly, that would be villainy.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Then they'd think he's a fuckin idiot.

Not necessarily. I have a neighbour like that, and he's just regarded as a bit eccentric.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

[Bobby apparently lives next to Mt. Doom]

Piccolo is right, and it shouldn't make you sad, it should make you mad as hell. Most Americans who know what McCarthyism was would be outraged that they're trying to resurrect the concept. Disgusting and disgraceful, I say.

edited 17th Aug '11 1:01:54 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

I have some knowledge of Mc Carthyism as I covered the Cold War for AS History last year and have heard about it through other media as well. In fact I remember my English teacher made special reference to it when we were studying The Crucible by Arthur Miller which was written in response to Mc Carthyism. I have to say the idea sickens me to no end.

And yeah sad because it gets to the stage of hearing so much hate and bigotry that I just don't see myself getting mad about it as much as I used to. Still get riled up now and again (maybe pretty often), but in my current position getting mad will accomplish little.

edited 17th Aug '11 1:24:08 PM by PiccoloNo92

Yeah, that's a good story, we had that in my literature class last year. McCarthyism was basically that, but for communism instead of witchcraft, on a bigger scale, and instead of hanging you they just blacklisted you and completely destroyed your reputation.

Arthur Miller was actually hauled before the HUAC. How bitterly ironic.

I imagine that if they get that gay witchhunt going there will be a bunch of Camp Straight people who get the same treatment that people got in the 50s for no reason, which is even worse than a shitty reason. How unfortunate. It would prove that effeminate = gay, at least for the Religious Right, I guess...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Very good story. Also of note is the film Good Night, and Good Luck starring George Clooney that covers that period. Also very good I thought.

Also to bring this semi back on-topic if such a thing were to happen do you think that would have any effect on the number of camps gays we see in the public eye? I mean that is the easiest way used to identify whether or not someone fits the bill which would make them bigger targets.

edited 17th Aug '11 1:31:56 PM by PiccoloNo92

Good Night and Good Luck is on my list of films to see, too...

Well, I'm sure the new HUAC would just operate under the assumption of "Camp = Gay," and then rely on ("encouraged") informants to get the Straight Gay people. It would be really, really bad, though I don't know if it would fly in the modern era like the anti-communist bullshit did back during the Cold War. I sure as hell know the Democrats would fight it to no end...

I am now known as Flyboy.

That's their problem.

Really, apart from the Baby Talk thing it's not stupid in and of itself to find spiders cute; hell, even the Baby Talk thing isn't that different for spiders than it is for cats or dogs... it's not like cats and dogs can understand you either...

In any case, my point remains; I've found something that diverges both from masculinity and femininity, and you have yet to classify it as either.

edited 18th Aug '11 6:16:43 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

It's a guy playing with bugs bugs, crazy, but still masculine.

edited 18th Aug '11 10:27:36 AM by Kino

The people I went to school with might disagree with you.

Nevertheless, do you really expect notions of masculinity and femininity to comprehensively cover everything? Modern technology alone has changed so many of the rules, such as about the level of necessity of physical strength to power, etc... which puts some of the logic older notions of gender are based on into chaos. What's to stop further technology from creating things that blur your own notions of gender?

edited 18th Aug '11 11:03:30 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Hey screw you I like bugs.

[looks adoringly at my own avatar]

---

To keep this on-topic. Considering I've seen big large men baby-talk to cute things themselves, I don't think baby-talking is actually all that feminine...whether it's to babies, or bugs, or kitties.

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Eh, I went to an all-boys school, so coming out as gay was... big.

My friend was gay (I hadn't realised this), and he seemed pretty Straight Gay. No-one had a clue. This was exacerbated by the fact I was more effeminate than he was, ergo getting people to think I was the gay one. Yeah, appearances are deceiving.

Single sex schools still exist in the UK? Shit, I would be considered gay by some because most of my friends are hetero women.

edited 18th Aug '11 2:37:53 PM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian