Genres you'd like if it wasn't for...

Then again, I really doubt there are many forms of vocals *aside* from harsh vocals that work with extreme metal as well as punk and maybe more rabid forms of certain electronic music. Harsh music without much in the way of conventional melodic sensibility, an emphasis on harsh atonality/dissonance and off-key-ness and other unpleasant things generally means that harsh vocals that carry similar qualities are a good fit.

Hey, there's many people who complain about rappers "just talking" instead of singing. I think things like that are mostly said out of ignorance (and not necessarily bad, so-called "sheeple"-type ignorance, but just not being into the genre ignorance). Rapping and Harsh Vocals alike have certain aspects to them, like flow for rap or ambiance for screaming for instance, that are distinct from singing but are still musical in their own way. And, just like some people don't like certain singing styles, some people don't like these styles, so they don't tend to care about learning their intricacies.

Alot of good bands put good use to the shouty, spoken wordy type of singing, such as La Dispute and mewithoutYou.

Anyways, on topic: Possibly metal, I just cannot get past the vocals.

edited 4th Apr '12 10:38:41 PM by cutewithoutthe

True, though I would personally prefer if the approach were a little less uniform sometimes. Taking the lead from the more extreme end of industrial and punk, certain metal vocalists should come around to the fact that there are more ways to go for the jugular with one's voice than monotone pharyngeal growling. I will, however, make a point that far from every extreme metal vocalist falls victim to this—part of the reason I love Khanate lies in Alan Dubin's truly grotesque vocals—but it's disappointing that so often potentially interesting, genuinely extreme music is held back by such obvious and stereotyped conservative elements.

Frankly, I'd love to see more extreme metal take influence from the darker end of Zeuhl. Something in the vein of Univers Zéro's "La Faulx", but transposed into a metal paradigm. Also, maybe I'm completely bonkers, but heavily effected/distorted, Ayler-inflected saxophone à la Transmission *

edited 7th Apr '12 12:03:13 AM by JHM

I'm going to assume you honestly haven't listened to much in the way of extreme metal then - Craig Pillard of Incantation, Christian Mertens of Dark Millennium, and Luc Lemay of Gorguts have all showed very different shades of so called "gutturals" and that's only looking at death metal. Harsh vocals alone have an incredible amount of diversity and that multiplies when you look at the different ways they can be used as a part of the compositional process. Sometimes they serve as something akin to additional bass guitar, other times they may serve as a sort of pseudo-ambient backing noise-shroud, and in other cases, narrate and otherwise lead a song onwards. Simply because they're "harsh" suddenly doesn't mean they're automatically uniform, it simply means that most listeners aren't very good at differentiating between the various styles the extreme genres offer.

Diskord, Voivod's first attempts at progressive metal, Immolation from 1996 onwards, Demilich, first album Unholy (actually probably the rest of the stuff this Finnish band did), dISEMBOWELMENT, Gorguts from Obscura and From Wisdom To Hate, Thalidomide, Timeghoul, Portal, Antediluvian, Mitochondrion, Rites Of Thy Degringolade etc. if you want very wonky atonal/dissonant/"weird" progressive/avant-garde/experimental metal of the extreme sport. Also, I'd say Zeuhl is more of really weird jazzy Magma/Eskaton/Dun type stuff. Univers Zero is more of the progressive/avant-garde "rock" stuff that usually gets thrown under the R.I.O. ("Rock In Opposition") banner alongside Henry Cow, Art Zoyd, and Present. Shub-Niggurath occupies the sort of grey zone between them.

I doubt some of these guys even know what Zeuhl is but they have musical ideas at times that aren't too dissimilar from it.

I personally don't think death metal needs much in the way of external non-metal instrumentation. It wouldn't really change much overall tbqh.

I'd like to see Heresie turned into extreme progressive death/doom personally although a lot of bands have already captured a similar mood or idea, sometimes through instrumentation, sometimes through composition. As in ones listed earlier.

edited 15th Apr '12 2:55:15 PM by StillbirthMachine

I don't really get why Univers Zero (first two albums at least) get classified as "rock" at all. 1313 and Heresie are practically straight-up contemporary classical...

A lot of the drumming as well as some of the composition on parts of 1313, Uzed, Heatwaves, Clivages, and some other stuff they did at times feels like rock (of the prog sort, not surprisingly) but sort of mutated into this weird chamber music of theirs. But yeah, they have a lot of stuff that feels more more like chamber music rather than rock at times.

Hell I've heard them, Present, and Art Zoyd simply called "chamber rock" before.

edited 7th Apr '12 7:09:47 PM by StillbirthMachine

This is a hilarious accusation.

It would be a bit like me accusing deathgrowlers of "just growling". Uh, no. I understand in both cases that there is quite a bit more to it than "just" anything. I simply don't care about metal enough to learn to tolerate growling.

Rapping is freaking hard. Try it sometime if you don't believe me.

As for rappers who are not "just talking" look up Busdriver, if you're still not convinced.

edited 9th Apr '12 2:11:51 AM by Hexagone

Busdriver is awesome. Busdriver could rap over another dude rapping.

Graziella is awesome too.

Why did you forget to mention Aesop Rock?

@Stillbirth Machine: Though you'd be right in thinking that I am not especially well acquainted with extreme metal—not to your level, at least, though that's really not saying much—I think that you skipped over the part where I pointed out that I didn't think of it as a universal trait at all, merely one that seems to happen too often for my taste... which leans toward "at all," as I think it's kind of a played-out, annoying approach to metal vocals. Not a deal breaker, of course, but not something I like. Thank you for the recommendations, though!

Also, I know that Univers Zéro were more aligned with Rock In Opposition than Zeuhl, but I've seen them lumped into that category a lot due to their instrumentalists' roles in different Zeuhl groups or some such, so I went with that nomenclature for the sake of concision. And after all, one could make the argument that Zeuhl at large was much more closely aligned sonically with metal than RIO (some Univers Zéro excepted) given Magma's dramatic, heavy rock proclivities...

May I also add, for purely rhetorical purposes—as in, please don't kill me for saying this—that listing bands does not necessarily bolster your argument here: For every band in the genre that does something cool and interesting, there is going to be at least one that isn't, and while I give exception to more "out-there" genres in this respect—high-concept music is generally too polarised and "thinky" to foster mere mediocrity—no style is immune to this. In other words, percentages trump numbers.

Regarding instrumentation: You ever heard any Transmission? These samples should explain things nicely. That aside, while I understand your point, that does not mean that exotic (to metal) instruments cannot be incorporated well into a metal framework; rather, it is rarely done as well as it could be. (Really, speaking solely of saxophone here, the only even vaguely metal-related group I've heard integrate it effectively was Thoughts Of Ionesco. And let us not speak of the obligatory black metal string interlude...)

Voivod are pretty interesting, but, as per usual with such things, I could not tell you as much about them as I might care to.

Apropos of very little: You write really long posts.

@Master Inferno: It's hard to explain, but I think that SM gave a pretty good summary. It lies in their approach to the rhythm section, and to music in general: More progressive rock than contemporary classical, if not by much. They are a very unusual, intriguing group.

@Inane: Yes. Yes he could.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:11:17 PM by JHM

The thing is though is that harsh vocals are merely a natural part of the package and you should never, ever go into death/black metal and hope they won't be there in full force. Given the genres' heritage, they're an inevitable obstacle everyone has to deal with if assuming they really want to get into it and unfortunately there aren't a lot of bands who want to be purely instrumental. It's just something so inherent and necessary to the spirit of the genre

I listed all those bands to show that there are a good deal of bands that are focusing on more unusual ideas relative to the norms of the genre. I know they're exceptions for the most part, but they're an increasingly large part of the genre no one can deny anymore and given the popularity of bands such as Ulcerate, Immolation, Into Oblivion, and Gyibaaw nowadays, "weird" death metal is becoming increasingly established and some might say even popular.

I've never heard this before but it sounds pretty interesting, even if it's only short samples. I personally would like to see some more string sections in death metal. After hearing a lot of the very intricate classically-inspired melodies on At The Gates' ''The Red in the Sky is Ours'' I think it could possibly help to open up some more blatantly pseudo-orchestral/chamber music style composition in the genre, in particular lots and lots of polyphony or otherwise layered multi-directional strings.

Uh... that's what I meant all the time. It would be hypocritical for me to hate on rapping because most rappers do it atonally (or not worrying much about tones, for that matter), since I'm into metal and growls/overall screams ARE atonal.. What I'm implying is that the opposite works, and people tend to cite "not singing" for their main motive for not liking extreme metal, and that's bull if they like rapping, which as "freaking hard" as it is, it's still not exactly singing.

I understand there's a lot to unlike in extreme metal (been there, done that), but the "uh man how can you like this the dude doesn't sing" argument is invalid if their favorite genre features a lot of not-singing too.

That kind of thinking, in theory, curbs progress anyway. Shuts out the possibility of discovering new things. Very bad argument indeed.

On the other hand, people defending growling can fall into the same bad line of thinking, akin to people defending action movies ("it's not supposed to sound pretty/win Oscars"). Some growls are better than others.

Trollpost(-ish):

I could probably enjoy the more musically creative strands of metal if it they removed electric guitars and drums.

edited 29th Apr '12 7:36:47 AM by Yachar

So. . . Neoclassical with distorted bass and harsh vocals?

I'd listen to that.

This is neoclassicism as I know it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BukSUkVapDI

And yeah, I forgot about the vocals.

edited 29th Apr '12 8:20:30 AM by Yachar

IIRC Neoclassical music was a form of contemporary classical music that was in opposition to romanticism.

(allow me to break discussion so I can post on the original topic, then you can ignore me and get back with the discussion at hand)

I have a few genres that I would would love if it weren't for the actual fans of said genre, such as:

• Dubstep: I've yet to meet a fan who hasn't given me the dirtiest looks when I say I don't know who *insert DJ here* is, or when I say I don't care for a particular song
• Metal: Fans always seem to fight each other over which faction is better (thrash core over nu metal, ect.), and it gets kind of old
• Country: I grew up in Atlanta, and heard so much of it. I actually love country, but I hate it when country fans use country as a weapon like they do Bible quotes.

Neoclassicism in the 20th century was actually in opposition to the ultra-modernist styles, taking influence from various historical periods.

Here

Say you like Pinch and everyone will know you're legit.

Oh, ok. I dunno a lot about Classical music. >_> Thanks though, now I know! ^w^

edited 29th Apr '12 8:33:52 AM by inane242

It's not hard to enjoy something and ignore the fanbase.

Unless you go to a concert or something.

Dubstep If not for the stereotypical WUBWUBWUB. Yeah I actually like some songs like that but it isn't all like that. Try telling that to someone though....

Nintendocore Yeah I know, crap. The real problem I have is the horrid vocals almost all of the bands have. The beats are sick though.

edited 4th May '12 5:36:15 PM by WoolieWool

Can I be frank and say I don't like it when people try to impose strict rules on a genre, saying, "Well this song can't be that genre because it doesn't have these arbitrary qualities!" and such? I mean, I listen to a lot of fairly conventional music myself, but a lot of those conventions wouldn't have been established without a fair amount of experimenting and branching out of one's designated genre, y'know?