South Africa starts a UHC trial.

South Africa begins a trial of a UHC in an attempt to combat the massive health inequality in the country and the payment of this is if a South African earns more than a certain amount they have to pay for it and they can't opt out of it.

The UHC system is expected to be phased in over a 14 year period if the trial proves to be a success.

Not bad. Not bad.

See, if they can do it today, and we could do it after a huge-ass war, the Americans have no excuse.

This can only be a good thing.

Why d'you say that? The lack of being able to opt out of it?

No, because atm, the healthcare of South Africa is awful. Its at the point where you're better off not seeing a doctor if you're poor.

What if all rich people just move out of South Africa (there's already a lot of emigration), meaning poor people still get no health care and the economy is in a state even worse than before? That seems far from impossible.

Lets just see what happens shall we? Britain wasn't exactly deserted by business and neither were any of the other countries.

People who say business moves away when social care comes in are citing something with no historical precedence.

Could you tone down the obvious hostility please? I might agree with you but your tone harms my ability to take you seriously.

Yes, its faulty logic. Business won't move away as long as it can make money. So raising money for a UHC isn't going to make business vanish. It may cause a few job losses if companies can't sustain the same level of activity however.

edited 13th Aug '11 6:07:11 AM by GameChainsaw

There are people who disagree that Single Payer Healthcare would be bad for business.

I'm not talking about companies as much as about individuals. I agree that historically in Europe and the US, increased taxes and social programs don't necessarily mean rich people move away to nicer places (though there are some tax exiles in the Caribbean and other rich-people-friendly places like that).

But South Africa does have a history of rich, white people moving out, especially after things got worse for them after Apartheid. For example, this:

(the comments are worth reading too)

Despite the hand-wringing over taxes in the US or in Europe, I haven't heard that kind of testimonies.

Sounds like South Africas need of reform goes beyond what a UHC can give it.

If you have people feeling they're getting overtaxed and get nothing but hate in return, yet another money redistribution scheme (taking money from the rich to use it to pay for the poor's health care) isn't going to make them less likely to leave.

Off-topic content removed —Madrugada}

A feeling of overtaxation is a constant "everywhere feels like they are overtaxed".

edited 13th Aug '11 11:36:09 AM by Madrugada

I'd imagine that people feel overtaxed in America already. And will continue to do until they have no taxes/turn into Somalia.

America is not, however, the topic. I hope this works out well for South Africa; at the very least, it's worth a try. That it'll harm the rich is a small price, given that the current system is hurting the poor far more.

^ Two wrongs don't make a right.

edited 13th Aug '11 6:57:44 AM by AllanAssiduity

ATTEMPT TO RERAIL: So much talk in UHC topics is on the poor, poor insurance companies. One possible benefit for South Africa is a growing in the healthcare provider industry. Afterall, someone has to administer all that care that's now accessible to the general population.

The price to pay isn't that it'll "harm the rich", it's the risk of driving the rich to leave the country in even greater numbers (they already are leaving), and leave everybody worse off.

edited 13th Aug '11 9:45:06 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor

Why would the rich leave over something so stupid as a small tax that doesn't even effect their business?

That'd be like if I decided "FUCK THIS I'M LEAVING CALIFORNIA" when they upped the price on car registration.

Because they're petty?

I'm going to ignore the American derail and just go ahead and talk about South Africa.

It's interesting for them to start UHC at this period in time, considering all the other vast problems plaguing them. However, the effects of UHC are usually pretty subtle. By lowering job change risk (because medical benefits are detached from your employment status) and reducing poverty (since the poor would be paying somewhat less of their tax burden for medical expenses compared to the middle class) then you can combat some of the bigger things hurting SA society which is, by far, crime. One would expect that less poverty factors lead to less crime but since other factors such as war and refugees overshadow healthcare so much, we might not be able to see a difference.

On the business side though, I'm sure small business absolutely love the concept. It'll reduce costs like crazy. It had a similar effect in Canada. It costs roughly I think 10x to 20x less in medical expenses (I get that number by comparing small businesses in USA and Canada). That's a substantial overhead reduction. And since a small business is owned by a single guy, the tax increase to offset that gain is basically negligible. I mean, how much can the premium be? $600 USD? $3000 USD? Whereas paying for a single employee's health benefits can cost upwards to $15 000 (most tech companies in the states shell out that much per employee).

You know it shows my ignorance when I dont even know what the private market is like in South Africa.

You know its bad when District9 is your only exposure to the country...

edited 13th Aug '11 10:17:34 AM by Thorn14