Taiwan's Independence

You think the PRC being in control of Taiwan, wouldn't restrict Taiwan's democracy?

Not to mention most Taiwanese hate the PRC with a burning passion.

If Taiwan doesn't make its government submit to the PRC, and the PRC doesn't submit to Taiwan's government, wouldn't that make unifcation a token gesture with no real meaning?

edited 19th Nov '12 3:40:43 AM by RavenWilder

Exactly.

This whole 'unification' idea is a pipe dream because both nation's governments hates each other.

1. What does this have to do with China-Taiwan unification?

2. What does that have to do with my comment that you are responding too?

3. Taiwan's Green Party, like every other Green Party in the world, is a minor party that will never hold the majority in Taiwan's government.

edited 19th Nov '12 3:47:09 AM by DeviantBraeburn

The unification is the ultimate goal of ending the billigerent 'state of opposition' between Communism and Democracy. Like you said, the civil war took place and ended way before most of the youth's birthdays, or any of ours for the matter. But because it already ended, it would make no sense as to why Taiwan wouldn't accept this token gesture already.

The unification is far from a means of stripping control, and, even if it is, it's justified. It's more a historical period of ceasefire between two systems and two beliefs.

Your point is as questionable as a pot of marijuana. Hate can be fabricated. You didn't provide proof as to HOW the hate came to place. The economic synergy I mentioned would never have been possible should the hate existed

edited 19th Nov '12 3:46:47 AM by Cassie

If you really wanted peace between those competing political philosophies, then Taiwan should officially declare itself an independent nation, and China's leaders should congratulate them and invite the President of Taiwan to Beijing to celebrate.

I can't win with these people. So bent on fantasizing about divided Chinese borders.....

However, you are naive in thinking that independence solves anything at all, what with Taiwan's USA asskissing and military ties.

edited 19th Nov '12 3:54:20 AM by Cassie

...What?

Okay describe what do you think the government of a unified China-Taiwan would look like.

Hey at least we aren't naive enough to think that the PRC isn't an authoritarian government.

EDIT: Better to kiss up to a democracy than a dictatorship!

And you didn't even address my questions in post 528

Also, A poll in 2003 among Taiwanese residents aged between 13 and 22 found that, when given the options of either becoming a province of People's Republic of China or a state within the U.S., 55% of the respondents preferred statehood while only 36% chose joining China

edited 19th Nov '12 4:43:51 AM by DeviantBraeburn

That had to be the most god-damn insulting thing I've read in this thread. Hong Kong people were having elections towards the end of the colonial rule. There was not a foul then. The foul came out only when the "temporary" legislature council got set up replacing the original legislature council and that was after the handover. The Britsh actually kept their promise of giving Hong Kong elections. The CCP undermined it from the start.

And I hope you can read Chinese, because this is the scan that you said we don't have.

And here's an analysis of somebody who read the whole guideline.

edited 19th Nov '12 4:38:00 AM by IraTheSquire

I'm not fantasizing about a division between Taiwan and China. It's just that they are divided, and have been for so long that longing for them to be united seems like water under the bridge.

Now, the idea that they should unify because greater unity between nations in general is a good thing, that I can get behind, but only so long as the people being unified are happy with the resulting product. And given current attitudes in Taiwan and China, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

edited 19th Nov '12 3:58:40 AM by RavenWilder

Here's a guess, maybe they dislike China's pseudo-communist repressive authoritarian government.

Just like most South Koreans hate North Korea's Orwellian Totalitarian Dictatorship.

I eagerly await your justification.

Why is it wrong?

EDIT: When it comes down to it, The PRC never controlled Taiwan. So its claims to the island are bunk. Similarly its claims to Mongolia are also bunk.

edited 19th Nov '12 4:34:44 AM by DeviantBraeburn

@Ira

Some guy in the Facebook Comments was offering an English translation of the scan.

Can you provide a link to it?

I don't have a Facebook account.

edited 19th Nov '12 4:42:44 AM by DeviantBraeburn

I still fail to see how answering TRIVIAS about the country itself counts as brainwashing

I still find it amazing that people keep insisting that the PRC has some right to Taiwan.

edited 19th Nov '12 4:54:32 AM by DeviantBraeburn

In that Facebook picture, the first two highlighted sections tell the test candidate to write what his/her neighboring candidate's answer is, essentially telling them to spy on people for possible dissent. In the third highlighted section it says: 'I am happy to be be Chinese (of China, not ethnicity)'. If you agree with this statement, please say loudly: 'I am happy to be Chinese!'

Frankly, that shit feels creepy. Even in Malaysia we are just told to sing the national anthem, that's all.

As for what's going on in this thread: Honestly, I am repulsed that there are still Chinese out there that think the year is 1891 and that the white devils will rape and pillage China all over again the moment they have the chance. I'm not saying Chinese people should submit to everything the West says or does, but exactly what good does it do to view the rest of the world with eternal suspicion and some sort of inferiority complex?

It's worse than that. They were asked to whisper (it specifically uses that word) the answer to each other (to the question of when the PRC is established), after having to yell out what countrymen they are. And the activity is the first test to see if the students are "good sons and daughters of China".

And here's another page for the scan. These scans are from the actual worksheets that were planned for primary school kids. The questions in the brackets are translated as:

Answer is A

And C is the answer.

Answer is B.

By the way: here's a scan ffrom the Hong Kong Human rights monitor in Chinese. It's getting quite late here so I'll get some sleep before going further.

Edit edit: Can't sleep, but finally some things in English. More to come tomorrow.

From the guideline (this is under the assessment section, btw. And includes assessment for the national part):

So combining with the above... You get the idea.

edited 19th Nov '12 6:25:39 AM by IraTheSquire

While they're at it, might as well put Taiwan into it.

That said, I still don't see the point in this. Are you planning to derail my argument by posting the Citizen Education and its flaws? Seriously? This concerns independence how?

Like I said, the politics and such have no bearing on whether or not the people support the foundations that make up the territory. If the people are so inclined to, let them protest. However, making the Chinese government look bad doesn't make your answer to Taiwan's Independence a bright and clear one.

In other words, no 'Holier Than Thou' fallacy here, thank you.

It is hardly a fallacy in this case. Both American and Taiwanese systems of government are more open, more democratic, more just, more representative, more accountable, and less corrupt than that of the People's Republic of China. Ultimately, democracy is the only legitimate form of government, and democratic regimes are morally superior to undemocratic ones. With this in mind, in any dispute between Taiwan and the mainland, the United States and the Western World should support the regime which respects the dignity of its citizens, to whit: Taiwan.

The reason people say that the governments of the U.S.A and Taiwan are "holier than thou" is because they are.

I have nothing more to say to this statement

Breadloaf, a sense of unity does not have to happen purely through "having China and Taiwan" under the same government. An organization of Asian nations perhaps?

You're right actually, sixty years isn't that long. But as I said before, it was only until the Qing Dynasty that China(or more accurately, a Manchu dynasty) took control of Taiwan. Why don't we give Taiwan back to Japan, or Holland?

I know I sound like a broken record, but why does Taiwan NEED to rejoin? As you've pointed out consistently, Taiwanese people try to vote for status quo. As much as it's easy to believe, Taiwan politics cannot be simplified to, "If you want independence, just vote green". There's economic issues(ECFA), Taiwanese factories and businesses in China to keep thriving as a relationship.

If your examples rely on China being a better country, fine. We'll use that. Let's not bother painting China as an evil authoritarian government, because honestly that keeps the discussion in circles.

edited 19th Nov '12 7:35:55 AM by blueflame724

I suspect because there is nothing you can.

Why shouldn't we paint China as an evil authoritarian regime? It is authoritarian - the Economist Intelligence Unit rates China as an authoritarian regime, as does Amnesty International, as does the Index on Censorship. There is only one party. In contrast to one years worth of election fever in the United States, the leader of the P.R.C was selected by an unelected cabal of autocrats and plutocrats. Freedom of religion is absent. Freedom of the press is woeful - Reporters Without Borders ranks China 168th out of 178 nations. The government's oppression extends even to its citizens' very bodily integrity: the one-child policy removes a woman's right to choose the number of children she has, forcing sterilizations and abortions on malefactors. The People's Republic (was there ever a more misnamed state?) is the world's largest and last true colonial power, occupying the sovereign nation of Tibet, applying an aggressive campaign of propaganda and repression to try to turn it into a province of China.

The People's Republic of China is a thuggish tyranny, where one sixth of this earth's population - Human beings, who deserve the rights and dignities afforded them by the UDHR, international law, and basic morality - are brutally exploited for the benefit of an unaccountable ruling caste. The reason people say that the Chinese government is evil and authoritarian is because it is.

On the other hand, across the Taiwan Strait, there is a democratic, tolerant, and peaceful regime. They deserve our support.

edited 19th Nov '12 8:51:43 AM by Achaemenid

You know, I'm not much of a fan of the Communist Party, but even I wouldn't go that far (on the Tibet thing, at least). I would say it is ultimately up to the Taiwanese themselves to decide what they want.

edited 19th Nov '12 9:10:54 AM by Exploder

It is indeed. And the majority of Taiwanese do not want to return to mainland China in the present circumstances, whilst the government policy of the PRC is that their nation is not a real one.

China's abuse of human rights in Tibet in the last few years has been shocking, especially in the build-up to the Olympic games. Of course China is trying to turn it into a province - one of the most notable taboo subjects on the Chinese media is "legitimacy of Chinese rule in Tibet and Xinjiang."

@Cassie

What is with your insistence on a unified China and repeatedly changing the topic to US intervention, to justify that Taiwan belongs to PRC?

21-521

Again, using the systems to segregate things up. Let's start with why you're going with the 'taking control of both lands' argument yet again (note the 'yet again' means it's not the first time this topic is thrown across in this thread). Your wording here implies that you STRONGLY believe that Taiwan and China were born seperate, while historical and societal facts prove landslides OTHERWISE. It doesn't matter whether the capital of the territory is at Beijing or Taipei. What matters is that Beijing is the capital of the official central government. However, your wording implies that Taiwan is a country, while it is actually wrong.

First of all, if you're talking about the concept of unified China, you are misinformed. For much of its history, "China" was in pieces opposing each other. It's only by Qing Dynasty that China (including Taiwan) was in one piece that you refer to.

By the time PRC took over, Mongolia (part of Qing Dynasty and the original ROC) was no longer part of China. Should it rejoin China because of its <300-year legacy, ignoring its later 100-year legacy? It went independent despite ROC's claim that Mongolia is part of its territory. Same here. Taiwan is independent no matter what PRC says.

And the "using the systems to segregate things up". The segregation was brought upon the Chinese by their own internal conflict, between clashing ideologies. It's sad but true. That clash still hasn't resolved itself, which means total reunification is still impossible. Not when PRC doesn't allow them to coexist under one China yet.

21-517

It takes unco-operative sides of people to form valid reasons of independence and secession. It takes my point above to bust the myths of independence.

The one that's being uncooperative is China. If China would just accept the Taiwanese do either remain that way or finalize their status, and not stock up arms pointing at Taiwan to intimidate the people all the time, then none of this would cause so much worry.

Republic of China territory does not belong to PRC. When US became independent from Britain, that created a new nation; it didn't dissolve the old nation, the Kingdom. Same here. Just because PRC somehow stole part of the territory does not mean ROC ceased to exist. PRC is the one that declared independence, and somehow succeeded, and somehow managed to force an international recognition while denying ROC any. How is that fair?

I mean, what is China afraid of if Taiwan is independent? That it will "lose" a territory that is 1/20th the size of the mainland, which it was never PRC's from the beginning.

edited 19th Nov '12 9:57:29 AM by Trivialis

At a guess, it's the whole "bad" (from the ChiCom viewpoint) example regarding Chinese people and democracy, as mentioned a couple of thread pages ago. PRC's current position is that the Chinese aren't capable of democracy. With a vibrant and fully functional democratic Chinese nation (de facto, whatever the official legal status) right across the Strait, it's a lot more difficult to argue that Chinese democracy is bound for failure (unlike what was ultimately demonstrated by the Guns N' Roses album of that name, anyway ) even with the near complete control of the media by the CCP.

[geographical spelling fail]

edited 19th Nov '12 11:26:24 AM by Nohbody

I mentioned something on that line earlier, about Taiwan refuting the claim that Chinese aren't capable of democracy. It's kind of ironic because if Taiwan becomes fully independent then PRC can just claim "They're not Chinese".

edited 19th Nov '12 10:03:14 AM by Trivialis