Tottenham Riots

Right decided to make a thread for this

For those of you that don't know, there was a protest going on in Tottenham (Which is a town in London, by the way) over a man named Mark Duggan who ended up in a shootout which ended up costing his life. The protesters were at a local police station demanding justice for his family and a complete explanation to what's going on. So far, so peaceful. And then you know the rest...

The result of this horrid riot was somewhere around several million pounds worth of damage and police being criticized for being too soft in a situation such as this*

LINKS:

• Article on Wikipedia
• Grauniad Live Feed

NOTE TO MODS: Can it be possible not to have the thread turn into another discussion on immigration because I don't think that's going to add anything to the discussion and will just derail the thread.

What I want to know is what the hell the protest was about. The guy fired at officers, he got shot. Whats the (literal) riot about?

Dammit Chainsaw, you beat me to second post.

Anyway, reserving this post for more info to arrive.

Well it started as a protest march for justice for Duggan being shot dead by the police and as said rather nicely it got worse. This kind of thing can happen at any kind of protest, just check out what happened in the November Student protests. It only takes a few people of a mischievous and violent intentions to hijack and derail something.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:20:44 AM by PiccoloNo92

Anarchists tend to turn up to these things. And not the nice, Savage Heathen type anarchists.

EDIT: But again, the guy shot first! Whats the issue with shooting him dead in return? Are they expecting officers to be Batman now?

edited 7th Aug '11 9:21:12 AM by GameChainsaw

Them, though probably others as well who just like to let loose and cause a little chaos and maybe were just a little tempted by that flat screen TV they had been eyeing up in store.

And as about him shooting first? Well though I'm against police brutality and over excessive force there was little they could do and it must have been serious if the police went out armed with guns. I just guess his family and friends were a little upset and want compensation for what they lost. There have been problems in the past between the police and different groups in that part of London and maybe feelings are still running hot. Also if it is true and he was a member of a gang then I guess maybe retribution was seen as the order of the day? I don't know, just speculation on my part.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:26:44 AM by PiccoloNo92

So, there were underlying tensions and this caused them to erupt?

I'm gonna go google Tottenham; back in a mo.

@WOYN: If by underlying tensions you mean nearly 30 years worth, then yeah.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:30:15 AM by revertedtozero

My reading of the wikipedia article makes it sound like the whole thing was a bunch of hoodlums looking for an excuse to start looting and destroying things For the Evulz.

Demography

Tottenham is a multicultural hotspot with many different ethnic groups inhabiting the area. It is often referred to as a black area because it contains one of the largest and most significant populations of African-Caribbean people. These were among the earliest immigrant groups to settle in the area, starting the UK's Windrush era soon after West African communities - notably the many Ghanaians - begun to migrate into the area. Between 1980 and the present day there has been a slow immigration of Colombians, Albanian, Kurdish, Turkish-Cypriot, Turkish, Somalis, Irish, and Portuguese populations.[citation needed] South Tottenham is reported to be the most ethnically-diverse area in Europe, with up to 300 languages being spoken by its residents.[9]

Tottenham has the highest unemployment rate in London and the 8th highest in the United Kingdom. It therefore has some of the highest poverty rates within the country.[10] There have also been major tensions between the African-Caribbean community and the police since (and before) the 1985 Broadwater Farm riot which stemmed from major issues of racism and police brutality.[11]

Although Tottenham is a cultural center, it has also been one of the main hotspots for gangs and gun crime in the United Kingdom during the past three decades. This followed the rise of gangs and drug wars throughout the area, notably those involving the Tottenham Mandem gang and various gangs from Hackney and all of the areas surrounding Tottenham, and the emergence of an organised crime ring known as the Turkish Mafia was said to have controlled more than 90% of the UK's heroin market.[12][13]

From wikipedia. As is the below:

"The circumstances surrounding Duggan's death were not entirely clear at the time of the riot - the impression was given in early media reports that the police killed the young man in self-defence, whereas eyewitnesses claimed Duggan was restrained on the ground when shots were fired."

...

Well THERE'S YER FRIGGIN ANSWER! No wonder people were so hacked off. Someone is lying here.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:32:25 AM by GameChainsaw

I was reading the article and it said the police treated everyone as criminal scum but what happened in the last 30 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadwater_Farm_riot It's never exactly been tension free but I'm not sure how far you can link the events.

Just a side note as I mentioned the British Politics Thread I live very close to Tottenham and sirens and helicopters have been going past for a few hours now. Apparently Enfield Town has been shut down by the police due to rumours of looters targeting there next. Heard this from my mate who works there as he has been sent home because of it.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:32:48 AM by PiccoloNo92

Replying to Shichis latest post in the other thread:

Hmm, well, there's my answer. Not quite sure how to respond to that. All I can see is that people of various ethnicities were involved... not unsurprising, given the many different ethnicities in the area.

How the hell do you break up gang culture? I think drug legalisation would do a lot to take away revenues from gangsters.

But in this area gang culture is pretty territorial, the post code wars and all.

Damn. Sounds disturbingly reminiscent of Glasgow.

Not knowing much about Glasgow I can't say but around here boundaries seem to be based on postcode areas for example Green Gang represents the N9 area while you get Grey Gang in N8. Not that it stops competing groups competing within any given postal area. As a previous comment mentioned Tottenham has its fair share of gangs.

Though a lot of these gangs are made up of youths who fancy themselves something hard.

edited 7th Aug '11 9:59:53 AM by PiccoloNo92

He shot first. I see no reason why the British police weren't justified in turning him into swiss cheese. Unless the argument here is that they should have rubber bullets and tasers and whatnot, all the protesters are is a bunch of whiners. I cannot comprehend how the family could claim any right to compensation, either; he fired on armed police. In the US, we would run a cheeky little news story about how he's made of pure dumbass, 100% grade. In the UK, they get in a tizzy fit over the fact that the police, you know, did their damn job. That's rather unsettling, actually...

>That's rather unsettling, actually...

It's slightly more unsettling that you regard gun crime/death as means for a cheeky story rather than a serious incident, although I suspect the reason is due to the huuuge amount of gun crime in the US, all US police being armed and gun ownership being legal.( Well mostly, depending on weapons etc.)

In comparison the UK has low gun crime rates, very few people allowed to own a gun (farmers etc) and the fact the UK police force aren't usually armed with guns.

@USAF: Yeah, its disturbing. This is what happens when you get a gangland culture that sees the police as an outside "other" rather than as members of the community just like them.

It's sad when innocent people die. It's hilarious when stupid people die because they do stupid—not to mention illegal and morally reprehensible—things. The cop didn't, to my knowledge, die. If he did, that is worth shedding tears over. This guy doesn't deserve any more time than it takes to dig a 6-foot hole and bury his sorry ass.

@USAF I disagree entirely, however it isn't really On topic for this thread.

I think really the uncertainty and doubt over the shooting, coupled with the not so great police and neighbourhood relations were the main reason for everyone getting in a 'tizzy'.

Well there are disputes as to who shot first, not that I doubt that Duggan did. His family and friends are clearly upset and apparently weren't filled in on the whole story. Bearing in my mind that relations with the police aren't that great round there either.

edited 7th Aug '11 11:23:21 AM by PiccoloNo92

The exact events are not known. What is know, that the police were on their way to arrest the man, shots were exchanged, a policeman injured and the man shot dead. The victim had a criminal record, was under suspicion and posessed an illegal firearm.

Now, the reason for the riot, as I understand it, is that there was a gathering for the man's memory, demanding more information about the shooting, adn it became a Powder Keg Crowd. There's been a long history of tension between the people of that neighbourhood and the police, and I would imagine the young men and teenage boys in the crowd had more than once been harassed by police or security guards, warranted on unwarranted, because a coloured man in baggy clothes automatically equals "gang member" to law enforcement. The riot wasn't a good thing, but it was pretty inevitable. it just happened to be lit by this event.

Yeah, I know the area as well, because I worked there for a while. There are a lot of hard core nutters around, as well as kids dense enough to think throwing stones at the police is a bit of a laugh.

Kids? Being hit with a police truncheon can crack your skull open.

Anyway, if the police version is true, it's a pretty clear case of self-defence. But that there's a story about him being on the ground when the shots were fired doesn't surprise me, because it's to the advantage of the gangs round there if people distrust the police. They will spread stories like that even if Duggan came out of the minicab shooting...

Who shot first? Well, if the police saw the gun, it may well have been the police. That the police sent an armed unit suggests they'd already been told the guy had a gun. They're absolutely hyper in those circumstances. (There was that poor bloke they shot a few years back who turned out to be carrying a table leg in a bag).

But if Duggan was carrying an illegal firearm, then he was not a 'good' man, whatever his grieving family are saying. Even if he wasn't dealing himself, he was willing to hold a gun for someone who was - and we're talking drugs gangs who are quite happy to shoot innocent bystanders in their turf wars.