Super Trope or Sister Trope to Maiden Aunt and Christmas Cake?: Old Maid

I used the word "outdated" because of this part of Christmas Cake:

Is that not accurate?

edited 8th Aug '11 12:35:11 PM by Meeble

Christmas Cake is almost always entirely within the head of the woman in question, and when this gets any significant focus she almost always ends up learning to not worry about it so much (and oddly, almost never gets a boyfriend).

I don't know if its "discredited", but its never shown as a good mindset.

Would it be better if I said "mostly outdated" then?

I don't want to give the incorrect impression that the idea is a currently accepted Japanese belief.

As far as I understand the discussion the difference between Old Maid and Christmas Cake is that the fact that she is past marrying age is mentioned in story by someone, the woman herself, or her family and friends.

I still fail to see how this is specific to Japan, or why Japan has to be mentioned in the description.

Because its a highly specific age, referenced very frequently by name in anime and manga.

I really doubt there should be any non-Japanese works on Christmas Cake, since its an explicitly cultural Japanese trope. Similar concepts exist elsewhere, but the specific trope, Christmas Cake, is particularly Japanese.

So we need to make an other page for the same trope, just to put the not Japanese examples there, because of the five years age difference between this trope in Western and Japanese media?

Christmas Cake also gets a lot of the pre-discredit stage treatment where it's only ever invoked in all seriousness by oldfashioned characters, mainly parents or grandparents of the main cast.

Osmium, as you know I wasn't sold on the distinction originally either. The process of discussing it in this thread has helped me get there, though.

I think what is important about Christmas Cake is not that an individual is over 25 and angsting about not being married... it's about the cultural standard that is so specific, and so exceptionally well defined that even Women's Pro Wrestling organizations would cut performers on their 25th birthday because they were no longer considered as desirable after that date.

It's not about the individual, it's about the cultural obsession with that particular age, and how that obsession is represented in media. That sells it to me that this is a valid subtrope.

I can now understand the though process behind the original creation of Old Maid as a distinct supertrope, and if no one objects to it I will take it upon myself to move all of the examples that shouldn't be listed on Christmas Cake over to Old Maid.

I object to creating Japanese-only versions of tropes based on assumptions about cultural specificity that aren't really accurate. The notion that unmarried women become undesirable marriage candidates at around age 25 is hardly limited to Japan; it comes up in "Waiting For My Dearie" from Brigadoon, for instance. (And I don't mean Brigadoon Marin And Melan.)

I was under the impression that the definition of Christmas Cake used in this post from the TRS discussion, "a Christmas Cake is still young and beautiful, but is rejected due to the Old Maid syndrome Turned Up To Eleven," was basically accurate.

edited 8th Aug '11 4:41:03 PM by Prfnoff

When you're moving them, just remember that a lot of times its merely implied. It's such an intrinsic part of Japanese culture that they don't need to mention precisely why the 24-year old woman is worried about her age.

edited 8th Aug '11 4:45:49 PM by Discar

I will note that my description of the distinctions between the tropes is in line with the original TRS decision that created Old Maid in the first place, so we're not breaking any new ground here, only enforcing the previous decision.

If anyone feels it's needed, though, I will make a crowner for this. If no one calls for a crowner over the next couple of days, I will holler for a thread lock and start on the changes.

This is on its way to being a Discredited Trope: the latest Japanese census data shows that more and more people are marrying older, with most people under 25 remaining unmarried. Many teens and young adults have never heard of the concept and many that have think it's old-fashioned. Having a character believing in the Christmas Cake concept may mark them as being likewise old-fashioned.

How can something be a strong cultural standard when the description itselfs says that it is possible that young adults and teens never heard of this concept?

If there is really this big difference between japan and the rest of the world, OK. We should rewite the description an focus on this differences, right now the Christmas Cake description is failig to point out how the Japanese and western treatment of a woman reaching a certain "Old maid" differes. And that is because the description focuses on similarities between western and Japanese treatment and not the differences:

Thus, "Christmas Cake" is used as a metaphor term for what Western audiences might call an "old maid....referring to this character as Oba-san is about as tactful as referring to someone as Ma'am and is likely to induce a rage"

"Many teens and young adults have never heard of the concept" Huh? not true at all, there is a group of Seiyuu that are called "Eternal Seventeen" because when someone asks for their age they say Seventeen to avoid this trope and/or avoid it in the future.

Refrenced Here (Although not explicitly says Christmas cake)

Female wrestlers are shelved when they turn 25 as well. Idols are also shelved at 25.

Its a fading consept in real life but full on in media still.

edited 10th Aug '11 2:09:37 PM by Raso

Ok so what's the trope for attractive, older, sexy woman then? (not a mother)

Cougar. Do we not have that one? Sexy Cougar or something?

Mrs. Robinson. Cougar should probably be a redirect, though.

OK, that trope needs way more love.

Mrs. Robinson is not just about a sexy older woman. It's about a sexy older woman who actively pursues younger men. (Which is also what a Cougar is, but not what was originally asked for.)

edit: I don't think we have it; I'm not sure it's even a trope.

edited 10th Aug '11 8:17:53 PM by Xtifr

Indeed. I just realised that when I went to put in some more examples...

Just to reiterate: this TRS thread was opened to clarify what the relationship between Old Maid, Christmas Cake, and Maiden Aunt was originally meant to be so that I could start the process of moving examples to their appropriate location.

I feel that question has been answered sufficiently, and since that answer is in accordance with the original TRS thread and YKTTW discussion linked in the OP, no further action needs to be taken on Old Maid.

If anyone feels that additional Repair action needs to be taken on either Christmas Cake or Maiden Aunt, I would suggest creating a new TRS thread on the article in question so that the tags will line up to the correct page. In the meantime, I will be hollering for a lock on this thread and going ahead with the example cleanup accordingly.