Marvel Cinematic Universe

BS. There is a huge difference between killing in a fight in defence of the earth and seeking out someone you perceive as guilty in order to shot him or her.

So Tobias...when will you watch more Iron First? I admit I really look forward to your reactions.....

It has always been self-evident that the real difference between Punisher and other heroes is not that he kills it's that he kills as a first, last and only resort. He makes a point of not sparing anyone, even people guilty of crimes who likely wouldn't earn them a death sentence even at the harshest courts.

Problem is very few heroes argue with that. I think Matt makes some reasonable counter-arguments over the course of New York's Finest, primarily the point that once dead, criminals cannot be rehabilitated. This is something Father Lantom reinforces in Grotto's eulogy ("We all have infinite possibilities of good and evil inside us, Matthew") but yeah he could have made a way stronger case.

That hasn't been confirmed here. In the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie he only defended innocent people, but we see him defend criminals multiple times here.

I mean, it isn't like Matt's actions haven't hurt innocent people.

I don't recall Frank going after pick pockets or vandals in Daredevil.

As I've mentioned, he's a great deal less rabid in DD season 2 than he is in the comics. I was talking about Comic!Castle.

I'm worried about the guys in military gear that Frank's killing in the trailer. The Punisher generally avoids killing police, military, etc. out of a firm respect for servicemen unless they're crooked, but those guys just looked like ordinary soldiers.

I really hope there's vital context that I'm missing here, because as much as Frank Castle is a deranged serial killer, murdering innocent men and women trying to serve their country is a Moral Event Horizon even for him.

I'm trying to do an episode each day since it takes me about 2-2.5 hours to watch an hour-long segment due to the complex writeups I'm doing alongside them.

But there won't be an episode today because I'm finishing up Wonder Woman today. I watched the first half of that with my roommate, but we had to stop right as Diana leaves London because it was midnight and we were both sleepy. She's given me the go-ahead to finish the critique without her, so I'm doing that today.

edited 20th Sep '17 4:37:59 PM by TobiasDrake

I'm more concerned by what appears to be the infamous shot of Castle sniping someone across the US-Mexico border which I've been dreading like the plague since it was described in a comic con trailer.

Private Military Contractors, corrupt soldiers acting like PMCs... there are plenty of possibilities. Note that his villain in Daredevil season 2 was a US military officer who decided to turn to crime. The trailer implies that he's fighting something that's an extension of that.

Matt makes it clear multiple times in he first season that he only intends to defend people who aren't guilty - it's one of many points of contention between him and Foggy. Upon being pushed to defend someone who did commit the crime accused of him, he has a moral objection to doing so and deliberately phones in the case to spite he guy's mob connections.

In the second season he defends Grotto, but only on the assumption that he's a harmless petty cog in organized crime who really needs help. When Frank reveals he's guilty of more serious crimes than Matt thought, it's presented as something that causes a minor crisis of conscience for Matt to keep defending his survival.

Arguably, the primary reason Frank's arguments affect Matt in the first place is because he also wrestles with black and white views on who is worthy of being saved, and Frank is a Shadow Archetype of what he could be if he lets himself fall too far.

edited 20th Sep '17 5:32:13 PM by KnownUnknown

And it's not like there aren't soldiers or police officers complicit in horrible actions in the real world anyway.

edited 20th Sep '17 5:26:20 PM by comicwriter

Yeah, making it look cool to take up arms and point a gun across the Mexican-American border leaves a fairly unpleasant taste. But then maybe that's the point, that there's meant to be some room left to question how much we want to align ourselves with Frank Castle, much as in Daredevil. He's a sympathetic figure, but a world with him in it feels decidedly less safe.

Soldiers in full combat gear wandering around what looks like an American forest, though, that's not great, either. If they were just good soldiers doing their duty, I don't know that they ought to be there in the first place. This is a job for the feds. So I'm guessing they're dirty.

Well, there's a PMC involved in the Punisher show, called Anvil.

And they're led by Castle's old Spec Force buddy.

Punisher stories frequently involve betrayal, corruption and vengeance. You don't have to be Northrop Frye to see how that's probably gonna play out.

I loved the music choice for that trailer, too, which is somewhat ironically an anti-war song.

I just want to know if we'll see the knifegun.

I doubt we'll see the knifegun. Trailer looks good, can't wait to see a whole show about the best part of Daredevil's Season 2. Seems like Frank is taking down a government conspiracy, like a more gun-y Captain America: Winter Soldier.

@Gaon In the comics, I'm pretty sure Frank only goes after the most vicious of criminals. There was that time Jigsaw impersonated him and killed jaywalkers and litterbugs.

Oh, I totally forgot the significance of Ben Barnes' characters name.

Yeah, his PMC will definitely be on Castle's hit list. Neat change to the character's background there.

You guys using the acronym PMC is messing me up.

Why you gotta be harassing Punisher and Old Snake?

Set photos of the Wasp suit.

@windleleopard: Yeah, we've had this exchange before. Like last time, I'm pretty sure Frank just kills whatever vaguely criminal person steps in his broad direction and leaves no survivors no matter how minor they are in the criminal outfit. Frank regularly mows down mobster lawyers, pimps, low-end drug dealers, people who likely wouldn't earn a death sentence even in Texas (whether they deserve it or not is another matter entirely). One of Frank's most classic tactics is storming fancy mafia mansions, which of course, will probably end with him wiping out several dozens of private security guards more or less entirely unrelated to the mafia itself (not to mention stray bullets killing a lot of innocents manservants and staff, but stray bullets don't seem to exist when you're Frank Castle).

I recall one issue of War Journal that opens with him shooting dead a man who's purchasing nude pictures of children. Not actually abusing them, just buying pictures.Sure, he's a pedophile so good fucking riddance, but it's still a pattern of Frank's M.O to things and a crime that wouldn't earn you a death sentence anywhere.

There's one story where some random mafia legbreaker nobody and Frank end up forced to work together in a underground fighting ring. The story ends with Frank coming back and shooting him dead, despite what seems to be a mutual bond they formed whilst fighting together.

In one story he teams up with Anti-Venom he mulls over killing a junkie before Anti-Venom violently protests.

This is across several writers, so Depending on the Writer is of course in effect, but it's evidently a recurring thing with the character that he kills anything he judges as vaguely criminal that vaguely inconveniences him. If a pickpocket stands in his way, he's minced meat.

Still don't like the costume...it is very bulky and I really hate the blue, grey and red colour scheme. Also, the breast area....it just looks odd.

I'd go so far as to say that "Crime person works with Frank to take down bigger fish, expects lenience, gets shot f*cking dead anyways because he's the Punisher," is fairly common in Punisher stories. I've seen a few different variations on that one.

>tight black leather
>clinging Wasp costume

Why am I not surprised, it is the Daily Mail after all. Anyway it looks pretty neat. Never been a huge fan of the pointy tip on Wasps's helmet but they seem to have struck a good balance with it here. Still prefer Hank's original suit the most and was sad to see it go for a more modern version in C Ivil War, but this one brings back some of that old-school spirit.

No Frank doesn't just kill anyone vaguely criminal. He tends to kill the "worst of the worst," or people who get in his way (yes paid bodyguards are fair game in action stories). At least when he's written well.

As I said before, he's been able to forge semi-cordial relationships with "shady people" at times even.

And the problem with trying to apply "real-world morality" to him is simple, the MU isn't the real world. It's infinitely more dangerous and has a "Revolving door" justice system that makes our own look positively airtight by comparison.

And add onto that modern-day comics feeling the need to constantly up the body count to absurd levels in the name of "creating a threat" and it creates a problem with trying to apply real-world logic to Frank.

Basically Marvel often tries to have it both ways in this regard, and it often doesn't work.

That varies wildly depending on who is writing him. There's a great moment of Black Comedy in Ennis' run where he's pissed off about something or other, and is delighted when he gets a chance to vent his frustration by murdering a mugger.

The broader issue of course is that the comics generally remove any sort of wiggle room about whether or not the people he's killing actually deserve to die. That part is just pure fantasy, and is somewhat antithetical to trying to tell a realistic or "adult" story about the character. That's really my biggest worry about the series. You can usually have fun wish fulfillment or actually something substantive that comments on the issues inherent to armed vigilantism, but you pretty much never have both.

edited 21st Sep '17 11:51:25 AM by comicwriter