Seems to be being confused for Villain Protagonist: Byronic Hero

Agreed.

How does everyone feel about the description now? Is it clear enough/as clear as it's gonna get?

It seems alright but I feel it needs to mention that Byronic Heroes tend to have disrespect for rank and privilege/power, whiling having both. this is a classic trait of the Byronic hero which is different from a general rebellion against society.

Hamlet is arguably Byronic. He was written to be Tragic, though, so being Byronic wasn't exactly the goal, more of a coincidence, I think.

Hamlet is a borderline case.

The thing with Hamlet and Macbeth (particularly Macbeth) was that they were written before the coining of the term "Byronic Hero"; they were written even before Paradise Lost was written.

Maybe Hamlet and Macbeth could be viewed as "Proto-Byronic Heroes?"

I've noticed how many characters have many of the Byronic traits, but without having the Byronic aesthetic.

And the description is fine. The only thing that was missing was the comparison to Draco in Leather Pants and All Girls Want Bad Boys, but I added it.

edited 30th Aug '11 8:31:58 PM by CrazyDawg

Hamlet seems a little too rules-abiding to be a good fit, at least to me. Plus, he's pretty wishy-washy, and doesn't have the arrogant self-assuredness of the classic BH. By the end of the play, he comes close, I suppose, but overall...bleh, I dunno.

Whether or not Hamlet is included depends on how lenient we are with our classification.

The description is more or less fine; I too, agree that the rebellious aspect has more to do with a disrespect for traditional rank and privilege than a nebulous rebellion against society in general, although general rebelliousness can also be a part of the archetype. I've heard Hamlet described as a Byronic Hero elsewhere, which is why I mentioned him, though I don't think he's a very good example of this trope. I never really liked Hamlet, to be honest; he was far too whiny for my taste, and he never really did much of anything until the end of the story.

edited 31st Aug '11 7:33:41 PM by tropetown

I think this TRS can be closed/locked soon, yes?

We still need someone to add in the disrespect of rank/privilege bit after that's down though a lock should be fine.

I feel like the disrespect for society's views covers all that in a more general way.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:11:32 PM by NoirGrimoir

"His intense drive and determination to live out his philosophy at the cost of others', produces conflict and may result in a tragic end, should he fail, or revolution, should he succeed. This rebellion against the rules or values of the society he finds himself in, as well as a disrespect for rank/privilege, often leads to social isolation, rejection or exile."

Will that do?

And I think we should remove Hamlet.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:31:58 PM by CrazyDawg

Don't forget to fix the Laconic (if its broken). People have been forgetting to do that a little.

I don't see too much of a problem with the Laconic; it's better now.

And yes, I feel we should lock this thread, as we have covered everything.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:36:34 PM by CrazyDawg

I say that works perfectly. But I'd insert a hot tip that they often have said rank and privilege themselves.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:41:36 PM by Vyctorian

Agreed.

Am I just imagining things or do byronic and antisocial traits (especially as they start blending into normality and indivdiduality) share a lot of overlap?

Not really Byronic heroes have to be social and charismatic that is a defining trait.

So are we finished?

I think so. The only thing left, which I forgot to mention, is that this trope is somewhat similar to, and often overlaps with Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, in more extreme cases. Whoever wants to add that to the page can feel free.

edited 20th Sep '11 12:38:12 AM by tropetown