Not all examples are about full-blown rape...: Rape Is OK When It Is Female On Male

The South Park example is more along the lines of "statutory" rape that both partners feel is mutual than full-blown rape. Obviously, it's still a double standard, but it's not quite the same one, as there are different issues to something both partners wanted.

Then there are considerably milder examples, like the Pucca one, which is just about a girl following a boy around and making him kiss her. As far as I know that's pretty much a staple of children's entertainment; I've seen similar things in the Sonic The Hedgehog series *

and the Billy The Cat series, *

^{(some human girl who knows that Billy used to be human finding him on the street, grabbing him and forcefully kissing him on the mouth, grossing him out a little)}

and it's always touched on in a lighthearted manner... understandably so, actually, since kissing is considered more innocent than sex, without risks being as significant. I think that one very well may belong in its own trope, as it is a double standard (IIRC boys forcing kissing on girls isn't taken as lightly) but, again, with different issues.

I guess these examples have parallels to the double standard about rape, but they aren't the same thing. Should they be under the same trope anyway, and why or why not?

Oh, and I'm (probably) going to be away from Internet for the weekend starting about an hour from now, so don't be surprised if I leave it at that for a while.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

The South Park example involves a grown woman sleeping with a toddler. I haven't seen the episode in question, but I think that definitely belongs on this page.

Other than that, I agree with your post. Listing things like harassment or forced kissing under this name kind of cheapens the issue. Would putting those examples in a separate trope (Sexual Harassment Is OK..., perhaps?) be worth the trouble?

edited 30th Jul '11 1:24:03 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

Zapped the South Park non example. Ike was actually in love with his teacher, there was no rape involved. Also, fixed the tag.

edited 29th Jul '11 5:32:36 PM by nuclearneo577

nuclearneo.............................. I really have no words.

Wait I do, It would be considered rape in every jurisdiction if the genders were reversed. It's rape especially when one of the partners is 3 fucking years old.

Does statutory count as rape in this instance?

Fight smart, not fair.

That doesn't necessarily make it rape, though. It means treating statutory rape as the same thing as rape is more popular when the adult is male and the underaged one is female. That doesn't mean we ought to extend it to its gender-flip. (To be fair, nor that we ought not to.) I think simply confronting that false equivalence is the more honest approach anyway given the differences between sex that's mutual (or at least seen as such by the partners) and sex that's coercive. As for Ike being 3, that's obviously hyperbole on South Park's part. That kind of thing wouldn't happen in real life if only because a 3-year-old wouldn't get a hardon in real life. It's clearly a metaphor for boys who are past puberty but underage and have sex with female teachers. [EDITED IN: Thinking about it further though, it's similar enough in its reasoning to the rape double standard that it might belong on the same page anyway. Perhaps a sidenote in the example about it being "statutory rape is ok when female on male" instead of rape might be worthwhile?]

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Anyway, if we're to create a second trope, I'd suggest either:

• 1: That it be about stalking instead of rape, since if it were about harassment it would seem like just a milder version of the rape double standard, and my examples apart from the South Park one are about stalking anyway... or alternatively...
• 2: That we designate a supertrope for rape, statutory rape, and more overtly sexual forms of stalking, and a separate one for its more child-friendly counterpart in the context of chasing and unwanted kissing.

Or something else. Not sure what else to suggest though.

Oh, and nuclearneo, what do you mean by "the tag"?

edited 2nd Aug '11 6:39:19 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Yes. Because statutory rape is subject to the exact same double standard as non-statutory rape. As this thread shows. I mean, seriously, if it was an adult man who slept with a three year girl would anyone argue "it wasn't rape; she was in love with him"?

Not necessarily a 3 year old; again, it's more so a metaphor for teenagers who aren't quite of the age of consent.

Still, I'd say it's still a crime, he still needs to be put away, etc... but if she insists she wanted it and liked it, I think it'd be a false equivalence to call it the same thing as rape.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

We can argue the ins and outs of whether statutory rape should be regarded as exactly the same as non-statutory rape. That's not really the point. My point is that it should be lumped into this trope because the same dynamic is at work.

I don't know if splitting Sexual Harassmen Is Ok When Its Female On Male is a good idea... There are a lot of differing factors on such things. As well as debates on what is considered "Rape" or Sexual Harassment". Hell even different states have different laws on that subject.

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:20:55 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

That's kind of why I suggested making the spinoff trope about stalking instead of harassment.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

We have Stalker with a Crush though and most are girls as well as most get away with it. And even Yandere girls get the Lovable treatment.

I could see Groping from Rape But in some places even that is considered Rape.

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:57:24 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

What then about my alternative idea to separate between the overtly sexual forms of stalking and the more child-friendly forms of stalking?

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

As long as we're cleaning up this thing, would separating aversions and straight examples be worth taking a look at? I don't mean giving aversions their own separate page, but there are enough that sticking straight examples up top and aversions down below in their own folder or whatnot would tidy it up.

Some examples blur the line between played straight and averted though, like how Family Guy presents Lois' rape of Peter as "justified" by the ludicrousness of his reason for turning down sex while still portraying Peter as having been genuinely frightened by it.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Sexual Abuse of Children is Okay When it's A Woman Doing It?

That name alone gives me an idea for specific titles for the two tropes if we pick my option #2 for what to do with this:

• Sexual Abuse Is Okay When Done By Women (encompasses Rape Is Okay When It Is Female On Male and Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Female as well as statutory rape and the more overtly sexual forms of stalking)
• G Rated Sexual Harassment (for the more child-friendly versions of romantic stalking, or for the "girl chases guy to make him kiss her" kind of thing I mentioned in the OP)

edited 3rd Aug '11 7:07:18 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Also, should I make YKTTWs for those trope ideas?

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

G Rated Sexual Harassment is a good idea, but for the other one what I'd suggest is...okay, I'm squicked out by even typing this, but...something like It's Not Statutory Rape If The Child Enjoyed It, or Children Can Give Informed Consent, or...okay, I'm not sure a non-squicky title is entirely possible here, but something for the overall trope where statutory rape or other child sexual abuse is portrayed as "consensual" and therefore okay, or at least less heinous. Then we can make a note in the trope description that it's much more likely to be applied in cases where the adult is female and the child is male, due to the overlap with Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Male and A Man Is Always Eager. But it does get applied to the opposite situation too — I'm thinking of Whoopi Goldberg's infamous statement that Roman Polanski having sex with a heavily drugged 13-year-old girl was "not rape rape."

I disagree most audiences will find statutory—or anything involving a minor and an adult okay just because it's a woman. Yes, unfortunately, there are biases, and it might be portrayed as more wrong if it's a man, but that's a bit less quantifiable than this trope.

I agree that we need a trope like this. Rape Is OK If Its Statutory?

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

Only Statutory Rape?

They will when the minor is a teenage boy who they are convinced wanted and enjoyed it. I'd say people tend to see that as okay in real life, let alone for fictional characters.

Also, my point isn't about whether statutory is less heinous, but simply that it's not the same thing. It's a different crime with differences in implications, whether these implications are better or worse.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

If the problem is that it isn't always forcible rape, just change the page name to Sexual Assault Is Okay When Its Female On Male. We don't need a half-dozen different pages for degrees of what she did.

edited 4th Aug '11 7:03:22 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.