Escalation of the Conflict in Kosovo - Another War in the Balkans?

It's more like you and some other guy have a nasty brawl and later with the same guy you are having a drink.

The entire situation isn't nearly as nasty as it looks. The 1990s are over. Most of those demagogues, warlords and monsters are either dead or behind the bars with the former KLA members being the only ones left.

Why is World War I an old shame? It's not Serbia's fault that others were itching to have a fight and looking for the next best pretext.

edited 31st Jul '11 7:01:28 PM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

I find exactly two people to blame World War One on: the dude who shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand, for 1) doing it at all, 2) doing it for a stupid, stupid, stupid reason to a guy who didn't deserve it and had nothing to do with what he was after and 3) never actually feeling guilty over causing millions of deaths. The world is better off without people like him.

And Kaiser Wilhelm II, for not calling off the military when he still could have. If he had never brought France—and later, Britain, into it, they could have just curbstomped Russia and Serbia and been done with it. Of course, that would suck for you guys, but hey, no Nazis, no World War Two as we know it, and probably no Great Depression. That's a better world, in my book.

I call it Serbia's Old Shame because firstly, it's the only reason we ever hear about you guys in the history book, since we never make it to the modern day section, and secondly because as I understand, there are people in the Balkans who honestly still consider the guy who shot Ferdinand a hero and think that he had a good idea going there. That's just sad.

Of course, I don't blame Serbia for World War One, I blame the dick who pulled the trigger. If there was ever "a shot heard round the world," that was it. Remember now, pretext or not, he did give the pretext. Without the bullet, there is no war.

World War One, of course, ties into the whole "Balkans are a battleground" thing. You guys just have a really bad spot, I guess. That mixed with a lack of getting-along skills and you have a recipe for shitty times.

That is a really funny analogy, I must say, with the bar.

I am now known as Flyboy.

You cannot in all seriousness think that a world war was started because of the assassination of one individual.

"Serbia lost their right to the Kosovo. They won't get it back. Maybe the North but not if they act as they do now. However the Kosovo shouldn't be up on Serbia's priority list. What would it change if they got it magically back? It wouldn't improve their economic situation."

Serbia lost because repeated acts of terrorism have resulted in a diaspora of Kosovo's Serbs, leaving the majority Albanian. As far as the economic situation goes, Kosovo is not only important strategically, as has been pointed out earlier, but it is also rich in resources. It probably would not make or break Serbia, but it certainly would not hurt it.

edited 31st Jul '11 8:56:00 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Sure I can. Most historians would agree with me, too. But that is off-topic.

What kind of resources does Kosovo have?

I am now known as Flyboy.

Most historians would agree that the assassination was an excuse for a conflict that needed only a catalyst to occur given the political climate. Thinking that this level of tension can be reached simply by killing a man is beyond ignorant, frankly.

The resources are the mines rich in precious metals, and, apparently, the minerals present are estimated to be worth over 13 billion Euros.

edited 31st Jul '11 9:07:11 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

No, most historians would agree that it was a network of conflicting treaties which dragged not one country, but the whole shebang into war.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

I didn't say that everyone was instantly at each others' throats. I explicitly said that shooting Ferdinand was the pretext. I'm well aware of all the other nonsense going on in the beforehand. But speculation on how it could have happened later doesn't matter, because in reality, that idiot man pulled the trigger at that moment, and therefore ignited two world wars—one directly, and one indirectly. If it had been some other person from some other country, we would blame them just as much and that country would be remembered equally as "that country that gave us the guy who started World War One." It just happens that Serbia doesn't have much to show for in world history besides that, so that's the only mention it gets in West-centric historical classes, which means people in the west aren't liable to know much about them past that.

edited 31st Jul '11 9:12:42 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

I never once had a history class in which either World War was presented as Serbia's fault. Where the hell are you being educated?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Gentle men/ladies. Please back to the topic. If you want to debate and discuss the Great War make a topic for it. I was interested in the topic at hand.

edited 31st Jul '11 9:11:29 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Once again, not Serbia, it was dickwad from Serbia. I should edit that post for poor phrasing. In fact, I will.

Yes, this too. If you honestly want to debate history with me and how I'm apparently so wrong, make your own thread and I'll come over.

edited 31st Jul '11 9:13:26 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

You're right. Sorry, everypony.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

I would like to add two things: The assassin did fell sorry for killing Franz-Ferdinands wife. He aimed for the General next to the duke. And the assasination was so important at first, that Kaiser Willhelm II refused to cancel his vacation because he thought the whole thing was over after Serbia granted every request of Austria except for one which they couldn't reasonably accept. If you want to blame someone, blame Austria, Germany (for backing Austria), Russia (for backing Serbia) and France( leading politicians and generals thought now would be the best opportunity to get the Alsace back).

If the majority of the people in the Kosovo doesn't want to be part of Serbia, there is no way to get it back. Serbia has the handicapp of doing nasty shit in the 90s and loosing a war. One factor might not be enough of loosing territory. Both? Oh yes.

Which is why I said that the north should be reintegrated into Serbia.

The Kosovo War took place from 1998 to 1999. If you also mean Croatia and Bosnia please keep in mind that once the JNA left both those places in 1992, Serbia was no longer directly involved there. In fact, Milošević threw the Krajna Serbs to the wolves and closed the border to the Republika Srpska.

Yes, the VJ did often resort to extreme measures and even war crimes in their anti-insurgency campaign, but not that the KLA was much better if at all. Back then Poland was also treating its minorities like shit and lost the war against both the Germany and the Soviets, yet hardly anyone would think that they rightfully lost their territory.

edited 1st Aug '11 5:29:16 AM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

This happened in a different time. While Poland treated its minority undeniable cruel, it was not that different from other Western countries. "Seperate but equal", enough said. Doing these things in the 90s just doesn't earn you any sympathy and it doesn't matter if your enemy was cruel too, as long as he has the public opionion on his side. Srebenica overshadowes everything.

The best solution would probably be Serbia managing to regain Kosovo and giving it the widest autonomy possible. That way, Kosovars wouldn't lose anything they have now, would be independent in everything but name, Serbian refugees would be able to return, the bastards ruling Kosovo could be sent where they belong and some honest ethnic Albanian politicians taking their place, and all could work towards mutual preogress. Shazam! Everyone's happy!

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen while the US and NATO are still interested in the region. Yes, Balkan is a battleground, but most, if not all, conflicts in history were caused by Great Powers manipulating whole countries in order to advance their interests. That is the curse of the Balkans - being at the gate between East and West, and constantly in the way of everybody's expansive ambitions. This scenario is almost impossible, but still has a better chance of happening than "Everybody joins the EU, feels the magic of unity, and all are happy."

The realistic best solution would be for Serbia to manage to keep the northern part of Kosovo and, afterwards, recognize Kosovo's independence. Then all diplomatic forces should be directed at exposing the leaders of Kosovo for what they are and sending them to Hague, then letting new, better, politicians take their place. If Kosovo got its independence, NATO wouldn't care who rules it as long as it remains so, so wouldn't really care about continuing to protect them. It would remain outside of Serbia, but at least the Serbs living in enclaves would have a chance of peaceful existence, the country would stop being a criminal hellhole, and the scenario of everyone joining the EU and being happy would be a lot more plausible.

Srebrenica is unrelated to Kosovo. As Adeptus said, the Serbian government stopped its involvement in 1992. Srebrenica isn't Serbia's fault, but the fault of Bosnian Serbs.

edited 1st Aug '11 6:16:46 AM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

True but don't expect normal people to know that. For them, it's Serbia's fault, though the very one-sided coverage doesn't help either.

Quite true. Ignorance can often be more harmful than maliciousness.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

True enough, though no one had any resentments towards for example Croatia when they reduced their Serb population by over 200,000 in 1995.

BTW: Srebrenica wasn't Serbia's fault. It was done by the Scorpions and a unit of the VRS.

edited 1st Aug '11 6:49:13 AM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

"If the majority of the people in the Kosovo doesn't want to be part of Serbia, there is no way to get it back."

You're missing the point that the non-Serbian majority exists because of the forceful eviction of thousands of Serbs.

edited 1st Aug '11 7:04:11 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Well, actually, Albanians are the majority in Kosovo for already 300 years, due to traditionally having much larger families and something that I'll say in the paragrpah below, though the eviction rendered central Kosovo almost ethnically pure, apart from a few enclaves surrounded by a barbed wire.

After the Turks failed to conquer Vienna in 1683, the Habsburgs started a counterattack, sweeping across Hungary and Croatia, then crossing the Danube and ending up in Serbia. The territory of Kosovo was considered to be the cultural heartland of the Ottoman-occupied Serbia, and the Serbs living there, led by the Patriarch Arsenije III Čarnojević, offered their support to the Habsburgs in liberating the Balkans. However, the French declared war on the Habsburgs, so they retreated their forces from Serbia and fortified their border with the Ottomans on the rivers Sava and Danube. The Turks wanted to punish the Serbs for their collaboration with the Habsburgs, so they were terrorizing, robbing and wantonly slaughtering the Serbian population in the way of their punitive expedition. The Serbs in Kosovo, out of fear, crossed the border and left for Hungary and Croatia in 1690. Today, the Serbs living in Vojvodina and the ones that were living in Croatia (some of which were settled in Kosovo after the exodus, only to be exiled again) are the descendants of those people. The land remained empty, so the Turks settled it with Albanians.

edited 1st Aug '11 2:06:06 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

I'm now enjoying my undeserved holidays in France. Hopefully things will have calmed down when i return. Thanks a lot for the interesting discussion. It's rare for me to talk with someone from the Balkans so I enjoyed it quite a lot. See you.

Wow always great to see history from a different point of view. I didn't know the war between France and Austria had such an impact on non-involved countries.

edited 1st Aug '11 2:03:08 PM by Zarastro

You're welcome. See you too!

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Not to mention, neither Tito nor anyone else after him made a serious effort to reconcile the ethnic groups. For instance, Tito never actually visited the Jasenovac memorial as he expected that people would forget about what happened in World War II. Kosovo has always been the poorest part of Yugoslavia and in 1981 the Albanians had valid points when they wanted Kosovo to become a republic within Yugoslavia as Belgrade was either unwilling or unable to change their situation for the better so they wanted to take matters in their own hands. Unfortunately Yugoslavia's favourite way of solving problems was either with violence by sending in the JNA or by ignoring it and putting their heads in the sand.

I ♥ the VRS

Bad news. Kosovo's Prime Minister Hashim Thaci has said that there is no returning to the status quo and that north Kosovo will be integrated under Kosovo's institutions at all costs. KFOR and EULEX are openly supporting him, and are refusing to hold a meeting with Serbian representatives on the issue. KFOR has received a backup of 700 NATO soldiers. There are rumors that the American ambassador in Kosovo has actually been instigating the whole action.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Uh-oh. Hopefully, that's all just bluster and he isn't going to resort to force to achieve his goals. I mean, the last thing anybody needs is yet another conflict, least of all you guys. For your sake at least, Milos, I hope this is just baseless brinkmanship in an attempt to get Serbia to capitulate. I really don't want to see another war break out.

Locking you up on radar since '09