Are Freedom and Tolerance in Retreat Worldwide?

Everywhere I look, views are becoming more and more hardline, the right are gaining more and more power, and people are becoming more and more hostile towards people of other cultures; wherever you go. Whether its Islamophobia, increasing hostility towards immigrants in Europe and the US, increasingly right-wing social and economic tendencies in the USA which benefit only the wealthiest to the detriment of all others, and a general retreat from unification movements such as the Euro, I'm starting to worry. Are we going to be under effective autocracies in 50 years?

Its not just internal politics as well. China is rising, which means soon the strongest power isn't going to be a democracy; its going to be an autocracy, one thats already rattled a few sabres locally. I fear for countries like Vietnam and Japan, and hope that India can also get a move on and get into a position of world power.

In any case, the world doesn't exactly seem to be going good places. I've even seen it on these forums. When I first arrived here, these forums were firmly left wing (moderate.) Since then they've drifted towards being more or less centrist, but recently I've been seeing more right wing posts than leftist ones, and fewer moderate right posts.

Between this, I seem to be getting an overwhelmingly negative image from the world wherever I look. I'm getting worried. I just hope things are moving more positively in South America. Russia seems to be slipping back into autocracy. At least things seem a damn sight better in Africa than when I was a kid; the continent seems to have come on leaps and bounds since 1990.

Thoughts? I was sort of hoping to discuss this in a wider context than single issues.

And you don't actually see that you're basically undermining your own point.

You're basically complaing that people on the right-wing are allowed to voice their views on various topics. You're equating the loss of freedom with a shift in how people vote, you're not so much voicing your concern about the loss of freedom, as you are complaining that your political oppenents are allowed to give their opinions.

Yes, I'm obviously advocating that people be not allowed to voice their opinions. Did I say that anywhere?

I'm not saying "you can't think that." I'm expressing my concern over increasing prevalence of what I see as prejudicial and harmful points of view. You can express these opinions all you like; I have a right to argue and resist them.

Mostly agree with what you say.. but I think China's threat is too often exaggerated. Their primary concern has always been internal; unlike the USSR, they have no desire of trying to export communism and turning the world red.

70 years ago the US was still segregated, the Klan was considered part of daily life in the South and the government was just dismanteling camps for Japanese people.

So, whilst it always looks bad, and we should fight to make sure it doesn't get worse, I wouldn't say thats true. There are always going to be extermists and intolerant people, there are always going to be people who like to make the bad news more important than the good, but its not always the case.

It sells more papers or makes you watch more things to pretend that the world is at the worst its ever been, because then you can lie to yourself that you are soldiering bravely on. Your not, its not and it's be better for us all if people upped and did something instead of pontificating on where all the freedom has gone.

The right have always been, and it seems always will be, reactionary. It's a good sign that these right-wingers are speaking out. It means they're losing, and they're running scared.

That being said, are you really sure you've got a good handle on the situation? I've been around these forums and with a few notable teeth-grinding exceptions that all predictable come from the same people most of the posts I've seen were about as libby-lib as you could reasonably hope for.

I'd like to continue this discussion but you haven't really been very clear, I think.

The Chinese are barely communist themselves. Their economy strongly resembles state capitalism more than anything, with a thin Red Army veneer and a lot of bullshit patriotism.

edited 25th Jul '11 7:49:31 AM by Gault

"the right are gaining more and more power"

In a discussion about the loss of freedom, this one line you identify the right with said loss of freedom. You're also lumping them together with islamophobia and a slew of other elements you present as negative qualities.

The United States is in the process of making gay rights complete. As far as tolerance goes, that's, like, the second-to-last frontier on this planet (the last being transgendered folks.)

As far as freedom goes, though, and as far as freedom AND tolerance go internationally... yeah, I'm worried. Seriously, if you live in the UK, get out while you still can.

Yes, he does think they are bad. What's wrong with that? Have you noticed a reluctance on the part of the right to do so to the left?

I haven't.

Why pretend it's a good thing to always try to be even-handed and fair? Sometimes judgments are acceptable.

And other parts of the United States are going in the opposite direction with Abortion laws.

edited 25th Jul '11 7:56:59 AM by blueharp

Hmm... thats because those elements tend to be associated as "right wing."

Come to think of it, whatever the hell right and left wing means.

Fuck. I think I have to go and give my worldview an overhaul (I hate it when I have to do that.)

They mean a diversity of things, as long as you're clear enough on the meaning you ascribe to them, it won't matter too much, as long as you can accept that your description is not exact.

Well it depends on the right and left wing you consider. I consider left wing socially to be associated with greater individual freedoms and greater freedom of movement (in other words, less hostility to immigration.) While economically, left wing means favouring welfare approaches over laissez-faire approaches.

I've seen a decrease in the elements associated with the left, and an increase in the ones given to the right.

Also, I should have said that I meant this very recently. I'm talking a rightward shift in the course of a few years. Not way back yonder. I was comparing the world today to the early 2000's.

edited 25th Jul '11 8:01:45 AM by GameChainsaw

Blueharp: I so don't want to derail the thread into an abortion discussion, but anti-abortion laws aren't about punishing sluts, they're about saving lives (with the degree of emphasis on Jesus in that equation ranging from nonexistent to frothing), and we can just leave it at that.

Hopefully it's just a temporary backlash, though, one step back as a prelude to two steps forward.

But there are x/y axes you may want to look at if you feel the L-R description doesn't work.

Yes, they do claim to be about saving lives. You may believe that, others find it to be a deception, not a truth.

But yes, it would belong in a specific thread about the subject where it would be argued ad nauseum.

Hm, you know, there's another promising derail direction there. I think I'll start a thread on that.

A lot of it is how anything that affects America affects the world, so 9/11 and recent economic problems are really everyone's problems.

However, there are plenty of bright spots if you bother to look for them. Nations in Africa are fighting for independence from tyranny and in some cases have achieved it. India is slowly but steadily working its way up to first world status. Japan's nuclear incident, while sad that it happened in the first place, really could have been so much worse and is more than anything a testament to how safe nuclear power has become.

And hey, we got healthcare reform!

Fuck, you look at the Arab Spring- FOUR dictatorships just got overturned in a matter of months. That has never happened before. You'd better be rejoicing, son, 'cause if nothing else we sure as shit do live in interesting times!

The way revolutions usually seem to go, a new dictatorship emerging from the rubble seems more likely than not. Still, with four different testing grounds, the odds seem pretty damn good that things will be better than when they started. :)

Egypt is damn well doing its level best to turn into a democracy. Mind you, the military still may not let it happen, but if the general populace fails, it won't be for lack of trying.

Actually North Africa, I have to say, has shone out like a diamond recently. Plus it looks like Murdoch is getting taken down... think thats a victory for the whole political spectrum actually.

Murdoch going down in a big snowball of fire is a victory for civilization itself.

Eh, TV news is still going to blow chunks, with or without Murdoch. The medium and its economic setup just isn't conducive to rational thought.

Don't blow all your 4th of July celebration explosives yet Barkey. Rich people have a tendency to slither out of consequences.

Hell, I'd be glad just to see Fox News choke and die on it's goddamned "Fair and Balanced" bullshit. Do you know just how influential Murdoch is?

edited 25th Jul '11 9:04:28 AM by Gault

At least there's one network putting out right-wing pureed sensationalism when everyone else is putting out left-wing pureed sensationalism. But hey, if they end up getting their news from Internet articles instead, it will have been a boon to society.

Well it's more of a problem that the west is not increasing it's freedoms and sometimes rolling a few back, compared to the rest of the world steaming ahead.

Take China for instance. Yes it's an autocracy but you look just one generation ago and they had the Iron Bowl, you weren't allowed to individually choose your profession/pay. Nowadays, you have complete freedom to open up business or do whatever profession you want. Back one generation, there were no elections whatsoever in the country, now it is a regular part of life to participate in local politics and local leaders are appointed into the People's Congress. I wouldn't call it democracy, but it's heck of a step up from pure dictatorship rule.

Then you look at the Arab Spring, with a string of dictatorships under severe stress, half of them still standing because the United States is propping them up heavily.

But you come to North America and we're busy trying to revoke citizenship, deport people, institute new police powers, putting in vast domestic spy infrastructure and the rise of anti-immigrant and anti-muslim groups. If greater rights lead to greater national power, we have a serious trend problem.