Why do people reverse Japanese names?

In my experience what you hear and you read are always two different things, but I admit to having been messed up on name order before - By both name order conventions in different series with different subbers.

Now though, looking up the names before watching and being able to pick out the names when they are spoken helps me avoid the confusion.

So I have to confess to being the kind who wouldn't let it bother them and to simply mentally juggling the names sometimes.

Anyway, if you're listening to the words and reading the subs, you'll probably notice that half the sentences are kinda semi flipped anyway.

The most ideal way is to have the grammar presented in normal order, and not do it like what GG fansubs did to Hidan No Aria

The weird thing is other Asian names are not reversed, just the Japanese names. And only Japanese names after a certain year (I think it is Meiji Era, but I am not sure). It doesn't make any sense, if you ask me.

Anyway, I prefer the original order myself, although I can't help from using the reversed if I am too used to it. The reason is I would personally not like if people messed up with my name, for whatever dumb reason. This could realistically happen in Spanish language countries, regarding surnames, as their rules for ordering them is different (father first, mother later) then ours (mother first, father later). Except, of course, we all have sense of not messing up with the names of our neighborhoods, so this never happens at all.

Incidentally, I remember that my US Visa listed only my last name as 'surname', and all my other surnames as 'given name'. Apparently, since 'Americans' can only have one surname, then all their tourists must have only one as well. I found this quite annoying.

edited 25th Jul '11 6:02:33 AM by Heatth

Perhaps hyphenating it would work? Even if that's not technically correct, it's rare for people to split hyphenated names, so would fit the names to be where they should be.

Ah, those Western Imperialists, always trying to impose their conventions on others..

jauce's response is totally serious man
damn imperialists

I think the important question is "Who cares?"

I just hate it when in the audio you hear the family name but the subtitles use the given one.

It doesn't make much sense in the abstract, but it's a standard convention used by major English-language media outlets, including Wikipedia, and people should follow it instead of being weeaboos.

I don't really mind Given name Surname, especially if I can very easily tell which is which.

The there are two things I can think of to explain the discrepancy in having just Japanese names flipped.

• Japanese names are closer to the two name structure that most American's use.
• Americans relate to Japanese culture and are more willing to take liberties with something they are familiar with.

Obviously, on a personal level, it is a very YMMV subject and we are not likely to come up with a consensus.

Now, the sub/translation showing the person my their given name when they are being called their surname... That is a little disconcerting at times.

Perhaps hyphenating it would work? Even if that's not technically correct, it's rare for people to split hyphenated names, so would fit the names to be where they should be.

I suppose. But it would be weird as shit, as I have 3 different surnames (plus a preposition). I have no say in my Visa mounting, for what I remember, so it doesn't matter much. I suppose I could do that if I ever plan to live in a English speaking country (or of a language with similar naming convention), but even then, it would have the side effect of people using it as a single name.

This issue wouldn't happen if people just respected how names work in different cultures, which is why I avoid reversing Japanese names if I can help it.

I know. It doesn't change the fact the convention is stupid in itself and it doesn't make sense to begin with. You say "being 'weeaboo'", I say 'being respectful'. If a convention is stupid, or, in the worse case, insulting, then I feel no reason to follow it.

edited 25th Jul '11 9:09:27 AM by Heatth

The worst part is that Manga scanlators also do this occasionally. How am I supposed to know which name is the given name in a given manga by group C if group A does it Japanese style and group B does it western style? It's seriously annoying.

From experience, if you can't tell by context, then it is not terrible important for the story. And the chances are you are going to pick it up at some point. Of course, there is a problem if it is not consistent. If you can figure out which order some character follow, assumes it is the same for everyone else and then discover you are wrong, then something is wrong.

Unless, of course, it is inconsistent in the original as well. As pointed out last page, if the Japanese can live with Takamichi Nanoha (Japanese name; surname-given name and Subaru Nakajima (Japanese name; given name-surname) without being terrible confused, so can you.

PS:Btw, the only time I've really become confused with this issue is in One Piece, as the main character has a western name, but follow eastern naming convention, with a middle name initial. Amusingly enough, I've never heard of a translation that changed its order. Maybe because it is not really follow Japanese naming convention, as it has a middle name.

edited 25th Jul '11 9:27:17 AM by Heatth

Personally I think that if the original has the name in a c ertain order, fansubs and scanlations should leave it like that. It's annoying and can cause a lot of confusion. Take Freezing for example, when it was first scanlated, they had the main characters name as Bridget L. Satellizer, rather than Sattellizer El Bridget, because they flipped it because they thought it made more sense that way. Confusing.

No one flips Luffy's name because Luffy D. Monkey sounds idiotic.

It's probably done because a lot of people don't know that Japanese people put the surname before the given name, so leaving them in the original order would be confusing. I don't have a problem with this; I just consider it part of the translation.

Oh, and as far as having multiple surnames goes, just put them down in a list; whichever one is last in the list can serve as your last name, and rest can be middle names. By definition, someone can only have one last name and one first name, but middle names can be endless.

Anyone that translates japanese works must know their naming order, that's not a good excuse?

I didn't mean the translators didn't know, I meant the audience wouldn't know, so the translators reverse the naming order so the audience will get which names are which.

Luffy D. Monkey sound idiot because you are not used to it.

You clearly has no understanding of how multiple surnames work. The other surnames can't be considered 'middle names' because they are more important then that. In English, middle names are random given names the parents give to compose a cool full names, isn't it? In Portuguese/Spanish, the other surnames are family names, and treated as such.

In Portuguese, the default is using the last name as the most important name. Calling one for full name is too much, so 'given name-last name' is more common. In some official context it is more usual to use just the last name. However, this is not a hard rule. If one desires, they can go for any other surname, as the 'status' of the name is more or less the same. Both me and my father rarely use our last name, for example. A famous example is Ayrton Senna da Silva, who you probably knows, went just for 'Ayrton Senna'.

Also, this solution wouldn't work in Spanish at all, I suspect. Their 'default important surname' is probably their second name, as it is the father name. Your solution would more likely reduce their 'important surname' to 'middle name', which is not cool.

PS:Just to make one thing clear: I am not against official translations reversing the order. Even if utterly dumb, it is the convention, so I don't fault them for doing so, even if I prefer when they don't. What I am against is people is people who acts like bigots by criticizing and reducing people who are respectful to other people's name as 'weeaboo' (not that reducing other people to 'weeaboo' for other kinds of behaviors is not a reprehensible thing, at any rate. This kind of condescending attitude denotes a incredibly narrow mind).

edited 25th Jul '11 10:21:06 AM by Heatth

I don't have any actual statistics regarding this, but in my experience most middle names aren't random, but are ways to name a child after a relative. For example, my middle name is the same as my grandfather's, and my brother's middle name is the same as our uncle's first name.

Also, some women, when they get married, will change their last name to match their husband's, but will keep their original last name as an additional middle name.

Oh, sorry, "random" was an expression. Harry Potter thought me () English middle names are used to honor people the parents like. The thing, however, is they are still not 'surnames'. Correct me if I am wrong, but people don't usually go just with 'first-middle-name', do they? The last name is aways to name used in official context. My point is, this is not the case in Portuguese/Spanish 'middle surnames'. Therefore, calling our surnames 'middle names' is far from correct.

I suppose a married woman using the old surname as middle name is closer to the spirit of a 'middle surname'. Still, is she 'allowed' (by convention) to use it in work, for example (honest question)?

PS:Also, I forget to mention before, but both Portuguese and Spanish have "composite 'first name'" like, say 'João Miguel' or 'Juan Pablo'. This is different of 'one first name and one middle name' as both names acts as 'first name'. By English convention, this could be a problem as it would transform the second name in a 'middle name' which, again, it is far from truth.

edited 25th Jul '11 10:49:35 AM by Heatth

In my experience, at work people are usually called whatever they want to be called, whether that's a first, middle, last, or nick name. I can tell you that my grandfather has spent most of his life being addressed by his middle name because he didn't like the first name he was given, and I can think of several famous people who are usually referred to by their full name (i.e. Sarah Jessica Parker, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Billy Bob Thornton). And then there are some people (though they're less common now) who will abbreviate their first name down to just a letter but spell out their middle and last name in full.

As far as official context goes, that depends on how official you're being. For really big stuff like tax returns, they're going to ask for your full name. For more minor stuff like bank deposit slips, yeah, they're just gonna want first and last names, but that's really an efficiency thing, like only asking for the last four digits of your credit card number.

EDIT: Actually, there are some English first names that are split into two different words, though they've kinda waned in popularity; Mary Sue is probably the most well known example.

Getting back on topic: How you feel about reversing name order probably depends on whether you view the order as actually being part of the name or being just a feature of the language's grammar. Like how in English you can say "Sam's shoes", but in Spanish the order of the possessor and the possessed is reversed, making it "los zapatos de Sam" instead.

edited 25th Jul '11 11:24:17 AM by RavenWilder

Actually, Hungarian names are also in eastern naming order, and they get reversed consistently, as a rule.

You may know some of them, who were born as Rubik Ernö, Neumann János, Lugosi Béla, Erdös Pál, or Liszt Ferenc. (The "Ö" letter in the links are supposed to be long "Ő", but the cultural imperialist forum doesn't let me type it.)

My own name is Simon Péter here, but I would be expected to introduce myself to any foreigner as Peter Simon. This is how they thaught it even in the first english lessons. "Hello, my name is Peter Simon".

edited 25th Jul '11 1:27:52 PM by Ever9

It's confusing for people who sometimes jump subers to know what name is what.

Why are we arguring about this?