Secession in the USA

Again, that'd mean they are suggesting they'd impose their agenda by force with the knowledge that they'd be a minority? What, they were taught never to retreat never to surrender taught death on the battlefield is the greatest glory a man should achieve in his life?

The people who would welcome such events are most certainly not the ones who are getting along in the current system, no. Mostly they're misanthropic libertarian/minarchist types who like to go hunting in the woods and keep cabins stocked with food and ammo where they can retreat for the inevitable armageddon. Not that I'm stereotyping or anything.

Oh, there's also the theocracy bunch, who look at Iran as a model for a proper government. They don't want to secede per se, but they'd be happy to do so if it meant they could form the Holy Christian Democratic Republic of Mississippi or something like that.

... I thought to the USA Iran was the worst evil force of evil since the end of the Soviet Union?

Anyhow, I suggest they look at Israel for an example that is a little more san-nevermind. Morocco, Morocco has recently become a theocracy. The king has crowned himself pope of the National Church Of Moroccan Islam. He had them vote in a referendum. 76% of participation, he said. Approval of 96%, he said.

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Country remains fairly functional. They don't let religion get in the way of business. It helps that Islam is pretty business-favorable, what with having been revealed by a merchant.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:37:41 PM by GoodGuyGreg

He was being sarcastic. Anyway, that's a different topic.

Yeah, I apologize. I'm pretty big on secularism, sometimes to the point of selfishness.

So, secessionists: are they an insignificant minority, are they actually violent, are they suicidal?

Yes, some, and some.

Secessionists are just froth on the surface. Most would settle for sweet revenge, i.e. taking the government and stamping out the Democratic Party forever.

Eh, does that mean silencing all the hundred millions of people who vote for and support the Democratic party? Cuz otherwise dissolving the Dems as an organization will mean squat.

I don't understand why all the hate.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:44:41 PM by GoodGuyGreg

Because the last time we did that, we ended up killing several hundred thousand Americans in a bloody civil war. (More Americans died there than in the World Wars combined.)

generally, the people that far off the deep end are convinced all liberals are evil anyhow.

As in, convinced we're either out to create the one world government to bring on the reign of Satan on earth, or other dyustopian fantasies.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:46:11 PM by Midgetsnowman

Actually, Israel is a pretty amusing example, given that the atheism rate is higher there than in the USA. But then, maybe that's just the effect of Jewish versus Christian culture.

I've heard they despise liberals for being wimpy bleeding-hearts who always play passive-aggressive victim and have a Stupid Good approach to life in general and international politics in particular, to a suicidal level. That's quite different from calling them evil.

"amusing" *froths at mouth* (nothing personal)

@Major Tom: peacefully and of mutual accord. Why do people keep skipping this bit? It says not-like-Civil-War. Which means nobody gets killed.

Unless an India-Pakistan type secession is made ("Towns that are majority Democrat get into Bluetopia, towns that are majority Republican get into Redtopia, those who don't want to live in their original zone can move out").

edited 16th Jul '11 5:52:41 PM by GoodGuyGreg

theres that too, but thats more the regular conservative view of us. When we're talking militant religious secessionists, theyre usually more convinced its more something straight out of Left Behind.

The militant types tend to be bugfuck insane enough to think one day they must topple america completely to save it.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:51:02 PM by Midgetsnowman

"We had to destroy the country to save it!"

..But again, this is trailing off into a tangent against fundies. Bottom line: secession, not gonna happen.

Why bother? They've already dismantled the hated federal government.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:51:56 PM by johnnyfog

Secessionists are just people who can't bear to be on the losing end of the democratic process.

I thought the federal government was growing bigger and bigger and less tolerable?

@37You haven't read Left Behind, have you?

Anyways, everyone in this topic has been Flanderizing people to a huge level. Not all people that are religious fundamentalists view everything the same way, not everyone that is in the Tea Party view everything the same way, and so on and so on. Please stop acting like everybody in the Right Wing is a bunch of paranoid, evil, nutjobs that thinks Liberalism is a disease. Have respect for others political views, even if you disagree with them. Otherwise you're just helping their world view be confirmed.

However, most of the people who advocate succession TEND to be Republician politicians relying on support from the militant right-wing. Of course, there is no chance whatsoever that this would actually happen, since it's all just pandering. If push came to shove, not a single state would actually secede.

EDIT: Also we couldn't do it geographically at all. Most states are stereotyped to be heavily red or blue, when most of the time it's an Urban/Rural split, with most states being 55/45 in one direction. The main problem in majorly red or blue states is voter turnout, not actual support.

edited 16th Jul '11 5:56:30 PM by YoungMachete

Left Behind: I've read the trope page. I don't see why anyone with a taste worth calling so would buy something that seems less well-written than many fanfics.

I was suspecting something like that was going on. How come city culture and countryside culture are so different? In Europe, they're much closer... Distances?

edited 16th Jul '11 5:59:47 PM by GoodGuyGreg

I read them. It was required reading when I was homeschooled in middle school.

Ugh.

We're talking about the specific brand of conservative that is also a secessionist. Nobody's said that all conservatives are like that. But true secessionists (not just the ones paying lip service) are so out of touch with reality that it's hard to be "fair" in our treatment of them.

Well, unfortunately it's sold quite a few copies, and more than a few people believe in things of that sort. The actual view of Democrats from the right can very from, well, Left Behind-ish to quite a bit of sympathy/admiration. Neither party is a gigantic homogeneous group, they're more like Coalitions of people who agree on a few basic principles.

I entirely disagree. They may be stupid, but we should never treat them that way. Everyone believes that they are entirely justified in their views, and you can't change them without treating them like intelligent human beings.

edited 16th Jul '11 6:01:24 PM by YoungMachete

Being fair and being kind are two different things. One can be fair and never lie or mis-characterize their opponents, carry across how deeply unpleasant and contemptible they think they are. Kino does it pretty well, so does Tywin Lannister. I suggest we follow their example.

"You're dumb, you should follow us instead" never works unless the person you are insulting already acknowledges you as an authority, superior to them in some way. This is not the case with political opponents. So that path only causes trouble.

edited 16th Jul '11 6:04:49 PM by GoodGuyGreg

"Intelligent?" (I'm not touching that one)

Some people you can't change regardless, and treating them with an undue level of respect is counter-productive, because it gives legitimacy to what should be dismissed.

I understand you want to give people a fair hearing, but there's times when somebody is just going to be full of BS.

Argumentum Ad Lapidem. It's a fallacy. It's lazy. It works wonders.

edited 16th Jul '11 6:06:07 PM by GoodGuyGreg