American Christian-Fundamentalism and Politics

So, there is a movement in america today, which calls for greater Religious control of the government, IE a theocracy. There are people in power today who believe that a theocracy is the best form of government, and this includes Mike Huckabee

and Michelle Bachmann.

So, are these people, these leaders, capable of leading this nation into a theocracy? Already there is talk of the constitution being an unimportant document, eg the Huckabee quote from above, Michelle Bachmann vowing to outlaw pornography.

I guess I don't really have a point with this opening post, except to say that this topic is about christian fundamentalism extremism, those in politics who share these beliefs, and what they mean for the future of america if this/these movements become successful.

I should note I seriously do not mean to attack religion or Christianity. I am seriously curious about the effect of religion and government merging. As such, please do not attack religion or Christianity in this thread. This is about people who take those beliefs too far.

edited 8th Jul '11 4:23:59 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

I've been called a Christian Fundamentalist before. I guess the shoe fits. That said, I don't want the country turning into a theocracy. At all. The fact that a number of the founding fathers happened to be Christians does not give us the implied imperative that we should make the nation some sort of theocracy.

I'd actually like it if religion - any of it - was kept out of the political arena. Religion and politics are already two contentious topics on their own, we don't really need to be mixing them into something more incendiary than napalm.

EDIT: Additional bonus content! If by some wierd chance a bunch of fundamentalists got into office and managed to shape things in their image... no. Not happening. I want moderates in power, not extremes.

edited 8th Jul '11 4:12:27 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

Ooooh, fucking Michelle Bachmann. She's worse than Sarah Palin in many ways. No talk about blood pacts from Miss Alaska, thankyaverymuch.

You don't sound like any stripe of fundie.

yey

I have to agree, you've never struck me as fundamentalist at any time.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

Fundamentalist ≠ theocrat or militant extremist.

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They are however incredibly likely to coincide, you have to admit.

yey

I realize that not all theocrats are fundamentalists, but it struck me that at some point, all three meet. You can change the title of the topic if you think that would be better.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

I concur.

However, these guys are really loud voices. But they are a minority. Dangerous, in fact. I dunno... maybe some of the more moderate candidates would maybe get the most votes, because most people are moderates.

However, most of the electorate are idiots too, so that overlaps.

But on a more serious point, I think they should have - and they would have to - gear up some of their policies towards those who aren't exactly nutjobs - on either the left or the right.

"Fundamentalist" was supposed to refer to the "back to basics" Christian movement, I would think. Following the words of Christ, not centuries of built-up traditions. Focusing on grace, not law.

But like so many other words, it has shifted since its coining.

At least, I consider myself a fundamentalist too by the first definition I gave. But I am also of the opinion that attempting to enforce morality politically only leads to the much more successful enforcement of politics religiously.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?

I'm of the opinion that fundamentalist Christianity is far more of a threat than fundamentalist Islam because they actually have a legitimate shot at enacting their political agenda. They have some serious fans in the States, connections out the ass and a SHI Tload of money.

yey

Gault, I've managed to keep my religious views out of a lot of discussions. One, this is the Internet, and it's quite hard to express religious viewpoints on this sort of medium, so I merely try to be as neutral in tone as I can, within limits. Two, doing that has allowed me to interface with a number of people on this forum from widly differing backgrounds and actually kind of get along as human beings. And three, running around the forum shrieking REPENT OR BURN is rather harsh, and I've found that a quiet simple example works a lot better than rhetoric.

Anyway, the topic isn't about me, so...

Militant Christianity strikes me as wrong. I really have a problem with those who think they can use violence of action or words to shove their message down someone's throat. IT DOES NOT WORK. Yes, you can protest laws and stuff you have a problem with, but intolerance on religious grounds can get really stupid.

What sort of stance will they have on alcohol? As Paul said, "all things are lawful, but not all things edify". I'll not partake in it, but what business is it of mine if someone wants to have a few beers? None. You can't legistlate good morals and character into people, plain and simple.

Now, if they don't end up setting us back two hundred years in terms of world views and things, and seek only to serve the country with their religious viewpoints guiding their thoughts and actions and helping them to be good honest leaders? i have no problem with that. I'd actually like that. But that isn't to say that a Fundamentalist is automatically more honest than someone who is an Atheist or an Agnostic or whatever.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

I only just now realize what a hornets nest this topic is...

So, if Michelle Bachmann was an effective leader, I would agree that she would be an effective leader. But as I see her, she's so caught up in being moralizing and being anti-homosexual. I can't really see her as a good President.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

I only know one person who thinks a theocracy would be a natural fit. He's my mom's cousin, a bright idiot, and a wingnut who is addicted to religious prophecies. He believes that we've averted several apocalypses thanks solely to the faith of a few select individuals who buy the same books (including himself).

Now that the U.S. is steadily losing its first-world status, I wouldn't be surprised if we were reshaped into a theocracy. The evangelicals have put aside their differences with the Jews in the interest of Israel. Why not a Mormon-Evangelical joint effort to push forward a Dominionist agenda?

edited 8th Jul '11 4:42:54 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Only now? Man, I don't know what your expectations are, but it's probably one of the tensest subjects of American politics.

Personally I detest it, because it devalues the morals and ethics I care about, and distorts religion into something I find reprehensible.

edited 8th Jul '11 4:41:43 PM by blueharp

A side note. Weren't a number of the founding fathers Christian but Deist in the first place? Also that would directly fly in the face of seperation of church and state. I am more or less with pvtnum11 on this one. Militant religious attitudes are poison to culture and religion alike. I can only see horrid things coming from such leaders.

Who watches the watchmen?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" (FYI, these are the opening words to the First Amendment of the US Constitution)

There, issue solved. A theocracy is just as unconstitutional as legal attacks against the church to silence them.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

Tom: Yeah but there are some folks who will still insist on the lunacy both ways.

Who watches the watchmen?

Tuefel: From what I can gather, the founding fathers wanted to avoid the US turning into a duplicate of Europe and all that, only without a Monarch. I only wish they had settled the slavery debate then and there, instead of letting it fester and rot for another eight decades. I see that as their biggest mistake, and we're still feeling repercussions of that myopia to this day.

Other than that, I think they did a pretty good job. And yeah, some were Deists, but I can't recall who was what.

I'd like it if politicians could actually run the country day-to-day in an honest and fair manner, and with integrity. I couldn't care less about their personal lives, so much as they can run the nation effectively. What you believe is between you and God - but how you affect my life through policy and the passage of laws, that I can judge.

Christians don't have a mandate to create a physical Nation for God. Our mandate is to spread the gospel one-on-one, and if a Christian Conservative thinks they can get elected into office and short-circuit that process and make the nation more Christian-like by rules and laws... they're doomed. It'll just make matters worse, and we'll end up looking like the bad form of Eagleland all over the place. I don't like those kind of Eaglelanders.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

pvtnum11: Agreed. Not much more I could put into that.

Who watches the watchmen?

Yay, thread over?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

I'd say so. this was a bad idea. How do I request a lock?

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

Enkufka: Hit the hollar button on your Op and explain why you want it locked.

Who watches the watchmen?

Not at all a bad idea, actually (in regards to the topic itself).

We need to be aware that extremes of any group or spectrum will ruin it for everybody.

edited 8th Jul '11 5:12:32 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

Or we can just chat about off-topic stuff until a mod wanders in.

Warning, this is probably a bad idea.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

hollered... thanks for letting this be civil, guys!

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry