Character or Work page?: Batgirl

Total posts: [38]
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I'm a big fan of the current Batgirl comic book series (Seriously, it's excellent. Everybody go read it right now!), but the series is being cancelled in two months (NOOOOOOOOOO!). It's being replaced by an identically-named series that features different production staff, characters, and potentially not even the same history of a shared universe. As such, it quite clearly counts as a different series, despite being in the same medium and having the same title.

What I'm wondering is what does this mean for the Batgirl page. How should this be formatted to cover two identically-named but independent series? Should there be two pages made (Titled "Batgirl 2009" and "Batgirl 2011" to distinguish them), or should the currently-existing page be divided into sections (Battlestar Galactica, for example, is one page with a section each for original and new series), or should it be one single blob of Batgirl-ness? Also, there was a previously existing Batgirl series from a few years ago, should that be included as well (Well, obviously it should be included, it's its own work, but again I'm asking how).

Complicating the matter further is that the Batgirl page used to be a character page (You know, one of those pages that just talked about one specific character and the tropes relating to them, not an entire work) that covered six different characters (They had all been called "Batgirl" at one point or another) in several dozen different comic series, TV shows, movies and different continuities. A few months ago I split that information off onto the Batgirl page (It has a Characters/ header) and turned the Batgirl page itself into its current incarnation as a work-page. Whatever we decide to do for the main Batgirl page, this character page will need to be incorporated somehow, since it can't just be cut off.

How should we proceed?

edited 4th Jul '11 7:07:34 AM by JBK405

Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
Hmm, this is an example where the decisions get a little tricky. My basic rule of thumb is that what appear to be "character pages" are really stand-ins for work pages. Superman is not just about what happens in the pages of the book titled Superman, but also includes his adventures in Action Comics, DC Comics Presents, etc. I think that's pretty uncontroversial, but Superman's also just one character. It's a bit trickier when it's "one name, multiple characters."

My first inclination is to just treat the Batgirl page as one big thing, as if it was The Batgirls Saga or somesuch. The characters are all related, and part of a huge ongoing storyline where the transitions (from Babs to Cass, from Cass to Steph, etc.) are explicitly dealt with in-story. If there was a Batgirl series that was clearly separate in the way the Battlestar Galactica series are (a la the various DC "Manhunter" series, which basically have little in common beyond title and a retcon here or there), I'd probably have a different answer.
3 SKJAM4th Jul 2011 07:59:36 AM , Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
I'd go with sections for each "Batgirl" series, so that the Cass version gets expanded considerably.
It'll only be a problem if someone likes the new series enough to Entry Pimp it the way you did the current one.

Otherwise, I suspect almost anyone but you would have just incorporated the work's tropes into the existing character page.

(Okay, time for me to get some sleep now...)
5 shimaspawn4th Jul 2011 08:52:57 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Yeah, I rather like them all on one page. It's sort of a continuing mantle rather than being completely unrelated. It might be nice to have one paragraph descriptions of each series on the page though.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
I'm not sure it's necessarily an example to copy per se (I find it a bit overlong and confusing), but the page for The Flash deals with an analogous scenario.
The thing that makes me not want to have it be all on one page for all the Batgirls, and why I originally split the page itself, is because there's parts of the series that aren't just about that particular character. On the current Batgirl page are tropes regarding characters who aren't her (Information about Proxy, Damian Wayne, Calculator, Oracle, etc.) There's also event tropes, storytelling tropes, etc. If it's a Batgirl character page, discussing all the different women to be called Batgirl, then where is the space for plot-related tropes and things like that?

That was the reason why I split the page in two, creating Batgirl and Characters/Batgirl page. The Characters/Batgirl page could have all the character info covering all the different Batgirls, but all the work tropes, the storytelling tropes and literary devices, could be placed on the main Batgirl page as the general page for the work as a whole.
8 shimaspawn4th Jul 2011 10:57:42 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
The way the pages are organized right now is horrible. The information on the various works is scattered piece meal everywhere and the main page only really looks at the current series. The characters page was badly done and isn't a real character page. It's trying to be the series page for multiple series and failing badly.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
So you re-purposed the main so the previous 09 run could have its own page, but all tropes before that (continuation of the same series) could no longer apply and became homeless.

Giving a Long-running Superhero Comic series its own Page seems like a bad idea, while it works great for miniseries or specific stories, events and movies. The series will eventually reboot and change in everything but name, its been happening since the 50s, and people will rewrite the page to match the new direction. Almost happened to Young Justice and the new 2011 comic still doesn't have its own page, just the T Vseries.

The Battlestar Galactica type split may work for two but not eight different runs.

The upcoming DC Universe reboot is going to affect almost all the DC hero pages on the wiki but since they were always Title pages and not individual works or characters they won't change much, look at Green Lantern, Batman, and Superman.

I'd do the main like the Green Lantern page and maybe subs for individual runs.

(I hate Stephanie, Cassandra fanboy 4Life)
I think the main page should be divided between Cass, Steph and Babs in that order. Any tropes on the Character sheet that are actually tropes about the works and not the characters themselves should then be moved to the appropriate section of the works page.
^ Shouldn't it be in order of when they were actually Batgirl? Y'know, starting with Babs?

edited 5th Jul '11 5:51:18 AM by StarryEyed

12 shimaspawn5th Jul 2011 05:57:15 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Chronological does make far more sense.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Chronological is the obvious choice, and how the current character sheet is arranged, but the iffy part is the series chronology. To date, Barbara has never had her own Batgirl series; except for one-shots and specials the first Batgirl series was Cass's in the mid 2000's. Prior to that all the Batgirl characters had always appeared in guest-spots and team books, never in a self-titled solo book.

In fact, that was one of the problems in the creation of this page in the first place, since a lot of these character tropes don't apply to an actual Batgril series (Misft, for example, has only appeared in Birds of Prey. Huntress was only "Batgirl" in Batman: No Man's Land. Cass did have her own series, but her Face–Heel Turn and Character Derailment were all in the Robin title). Would those tropes go on the Batgirl page or on the Characters/Batgirl page?
14 shimaspawn5th Jul 2011 08:30:12 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Batgirl page. We organize western comic pages by lynchpin characters because of the sheer number of one shots and crossovers.

What we could do is have the main be both disambig the history and evolution of Batgirl with each of the series having their own pages designated by start and end year.

edited 5th Jul '11 8:32:22 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
That could work; give an overview of the character while still maintaining independent work pages
16 shimaspawn5th Jul 2011 09:12:24 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
Hmm, my gut reaction would be against that, not necessarily in and of itself, but because it might set a bad precedent. Organization by series, as a general rule, is a bad idea when dealing with superhero comics. It kinda-sorta works for Batgirl, but even here, there's a problem, in that the 2011 series will be the first actual series Barbara ever had, despite having appeared for over a decade in features appearing in other series.
Would the 2008 series need its own page? It features the same character and continues the plotlines of the earlier Cass series and her Robin guest-spots, just with a different production team (And marked inferiority, but that's neither here nor there).

Also, would the current Characters/Batgirl page become the new primary Batgirl page (With adjustments, of course) since it's the page with the "This is the idea of the character and its broad history" information, or should it remain as a character page with a completely new page made for the intro/disambig?
19 shimaspawn5th Jul 2011 09:20:35 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up][up] I agree. Organization by series is generally bad for Western Superhero comics because of their nature. Even The Other Wiki does organization by character instead. But the current way the page is doesn't work either. We could do it by Batgirl instead. Ultimately, we really are going to have to figure out how to organize Superhero comics on this wiki, because it's really hard to do.

edited 5th Jul '11 9:23:58 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Oya, a bit more complicated than is truly preferable. Maybe a little bit of a combination:

1) The main Batgirl page itself, which gives the prose description of the character and her history and all the character tropes for the various people to carry the title and pretend to do so. Here we can put in all the personal bits from different series that don't belong on an actual Batgirl work page since they're not from a Batgirl work, but still have to do with the character.

2) Batgirl: Cassandra Cain (Or 2000-2006, however we want to title it). The work tropes of that series (Including plot tropes, character tropes specific to that series or specific to characters that appeared in that series, etc.)

3) Batgirl: Stephanie Brown (Or 2009-2011, however we want to title it). Same as Cassie, work tropes that are specific to the series.

4) Comicbook/Batgirl. The upcoming Barbara Gordon series. No year in the title since it's ongoing, and at the Comicbook/ header since it's going to be the current series, the "real" series for the time being.

This way there is a work page for each published series, which will have plot tropes and character tropes unique to each one that don't apply to the others, and the primary Batgirl page for general information and prose background, which can have all the character tropes for the different Batgirl's even if they never got their own series.


edited 5th Jul '11 11:35:39 AM by JBK405

You guys are getting twisted because you cant decide if this is a works page or a character page. there are lots of works pages on this wiki, and they usually seem to follows the same guidelines.

You want to have a page about an ongoing Comic book named "Batgirl" by DC Comics. There have been other related comic books named "Batgirl" they can all go on the same page. Start with the first ongoing comic book named "Batgirl" (volume 1) and work down from there.

It shouldn't matter that Cassandra Cain wasn't the first batgirl if this page is about books named "Batgirl" not the characters named "Batgirl".

then Stephanie's Book,

then finally the current section for Babs book (her first title).

the character page can have Bat-Girl, Huntress and all the Batgirls in chrono order with character specific tropes.

^ The whole discussion is about whether it should be a works page rather than a character page.
23 Bailey8th Jul 2011 12:08:39 AM from Next Sunday, A.D.
Okay, regarding Batgirl, I believe having a multiple works pages plus a character/diambiguation page makes sense.

More generally, though, I'm beginning to think we're overdue for a big ol' discussion about the handling of works with the same title in the same medium. The Other Wiki identifies works of the same name by putting the (first) year of release in parentheses after the title and medium, and they're consistent about that.

Should we be having a Special Projects thread to figure out a system?

edited 8th Jul '11 12:09:04 AM by Bailey

24 Deboss8th Jul 2011 12:51:31 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
If you want some advice, build the main page around the character(s) in the mythology, put the time line and an index of the comicbooks in the Comic Book namespace and put the various comicbook runs in their own space based on plot/arc separation.
Gah, the series is finally over. @#%&ing relaunch, this comic was gold. I miss it already.

Anyway, now that we've reached the ending it's time to make some sort of final decision before the new #1 comes out in a few weeks. Independent work pages for each series (One for Cassandra Cain's series, one for Stephanie's series and one for Barbara's series), or a single character page divided into sections for each series, or some sort of combinations?

My support is for the mix: An independent character page covering all the different Batgirls and the character tropes that apply across series lines, and also separate pages for the series themselves to cover all the work tropes (Character tropes for other characters, plotline tropes, developments tropes, etc.) that don't apply to the character of Batgirl herself.

Is there a final ruling?

edited 12th Aug '11 7:59:32 AM by JBK405

Total posts: 38
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