European Politics Thread

Then, you may have read my more recent post in that thread. If the descendants of mouriscos want to apply for citizenship or a symbolic compensation (because I doubt we can quantify the exact amount of damage that has to be repaid, since there aren't many financial records from those times), sure, let them make their wish. There haven't really been any requests made by them recently, however, as far as I can tell.

And... that's it, really. Though, personally, I'd rather deal with the matter of compensations and citizenships with more recent victims (read: colonial and post-colonial victims), first (for the sake of closer priorities (e.g. mending the wounds of recent history) and easier results to obtain, economically and culturally speaking). And with Sephardic Jews, since it's a process that has already begun.

edited 12th Feb '16 3:25:42 PM by Quag15

History Marches On

The thing about the Moorish conquest of much of the Iberian Peninsula was that, at that time, the conquest by them had the full might of many powerful arab nations from afar.

By the time the Catholic Kings managed to gather Castille and Leon and others together, the Moors were separated ideologically and politically from the other factions. In other words, they had isolated themselves by politics.

This gave the Catholic kings the power and opportunity to do the reconquista because through sheer power, the landscape had shifted enough that the foreign power was not established enough to supercede the primigenial inhabitants.

What I mean with this, is that people A were there first. People B came from elsewhere and conquered it. People B never overpowered or outnumbered people A, however, but rather, they dominated them with backup from a foreign land. When People B ceased having the support of their empire, People A took it back. That People A afterwards treated the few people B remnants horribly is a different thing that is not excusable, of course.

This, in comparison to the examples of the Saxons (on celt tribes), Normans (On Saxon kingdoms), Spaniards (On Aztec kingdom), British (On native americans), French (on native americans) did, which involved the wholeplace displacement and/or extermination of a people that rendered any claim cultural or historical, basically washed away in blood.

Compare with Algeria, India, Guyanas, Hawaii or Haiti were the governments established were distinctly separated by nation with miscegenation being highly discourage (but impossible to stop nonetheless).

An example would be Britain on India. Britain hardly slaughtered all of India. Woulda been kinda impossible. They did subjugate it. Could Britain make a claim India was theirs with all those. You know. Indians in there? Hardly. The Spanish reconquista afterwards involved some real awful shit, that is no lie, but it was though enough and it was done on a displaced, fragmented and separated people enough that it is kinda accurate to call it a "re-conquest".

In Spain, people are quite mixed blooded and a lot of their culture has arabic influences (but don't tell them that they will get angry at you), like it is in latin america and stuff but it was homogenized enough and separated politically by institution with all the expulsions and burnings and stuff that the populace ended up miscegenated under one culture...that was already "borrowing" a lot from the conquering culture anyways

Unlike Latin America where the Spaniards ended up quite mixed blooded in some cases (Like Mexico) or the United States where the displacement and racial differences were exacerbated by skin color enough that miscegenation was not those of the levels of Mexico. The United States would have stagnated the fuck out of themselves if they had not kept incredibly open to immigration from Germans, Irish and several others then-discriminated peoples after that...

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Your posts are actually the ones I can understand, sadly it seems that the people who in the refuge thread were arguing that there's no comparison have declined to follow the discussion here.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Is exhibitionism and filmed public sex legal across Continental Europe? Why do I ask? Because a porn site named Public Disgrace films in Europe. Forgive me for bringing up porn, but because this site films in Europe, how do they get away with it? If anyone is wanting proof, Google it yourselves, because I can't anything NSFW here.

edited 12th Feb '16 4:19:34 PM by HallowHawk

Pretty sure so as long as it doesn't involve real minors and is consensual it is. IANAL of course.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I see. Thanks

in Europe the attitude to sex is a lot more laid back (blame France), there was even a time when pron was shown in cinemas, the same ones that did all the "normal" films

advancing the front into TV Tropes

Well, the main problem is that it involves a lot of very digged up history, however I can say that, as things are, it would be easier to reincorporate the Sephardic Jews than the mouriscos/moriscos.

A big point of the Reconquista is that it was both with religious fervour and tolerance, besides the people were not exterminated so long as they converted, a big difference from what happened during the First Crusade. There was also the system of presura which allowed the common folk to gain land granted by the king in return to their aid which allowed the Hidalgos to be borned and prevented the spats of power that dragged down the monarquies of Northern Europe.

edited 12th Feb '16 5:48:40 PM by raziel365

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

Many European countries are less sensitive to sex and nudity than North America (Especially the US) is. However, they are more sensitive to violence (Especially Germany) than North America.

edited 12th Feb '16 5:51:42 PM by Bat178

Germany... is a special case, we let them slide due to their... unique history, though they tend to skew things, we had a brush with that behaviour in the 80's with the whole "Video Nasty" thing, we're a lot better now

advancing the front into TV Tropes

So apparently Europe should envy the US's political process. This is news to me. But I can see where the article is coming from. I wonder what actual European think.

Their are good reasons why Europe's Jews are worried. As someone whose Uncle and Cousins are Jewish, this is concerning to say the least.

edited 12th Feb '16 7:19:05 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

No. Have you seen the morons who the US has running for President this year and the stuff the US Government has done in recent years, not to mention the stuff they have been trying to pass recently like SOPA, CISPA and TPP? Also, most Europeans hate having to be the US's lackeys. Trying to force US politics on them will just make it worse.

edited 12th Feb '16 7:27:44 PM by Bat178

X5 Except that Muslims who converted (and their descendants) were later expelled, so the tolerance argument doesn't hold water. Likewise I don't see how being better then the first crusade is a high enough bar. I still don't see how there's any difference between the treatment of Jews or Muslims or why the descendants of expelled Jews should receive compensation but it's absurd to even suggest that the descendants of expelled Muslims should.

I don't see why we should envy a system that is seeing a worrying rise in the popularity of Facism, we tried that, it didn't work out.

As for the thing on European Jews, it was making sense right up until it tried to conflate be anti-Israel with being anti-Semitic, that's where it lost me.

edited 12th Feb '16 7:45:50 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Please read the dam article before you complain. It talks more about how Americans actually have enough passion to think their nation is great every election year, and thus have so many risk so much and create such a spectacle. It doesn't say Europe should adapt the mechanisms of American governance. If anything it's more an excuse to whine about Europe's woes (god France can't even manage 1 percent economic growth that is bad.) Oh and considering two EU members have fallen to fascism, and the British conservative party calling it's domestic critics supporters of terrorism, something not even Bush was willing to do, you guys are just as bad as us if not worse.

And if Europe hate being the US's lackeys they could start by fucking spending actual money on defense and meeting their dam Nato commitments. Or at the very least stop being so dam condescending towards nations that do. Europe can have it one way or the other. They can ether be our lackey's or they can stop freeloading on both defense and economics and do

You can't deny that their is a lot of anti semitism in the Middle East. We can argue about how justified it is, but the reality is that it is their.

Edit: As for the Reconquista, I find, that like history in general, if you analyze it to much it will drive you to insanity. I guess the entire history of our species could be considered some kind of metaphorical Cthulu.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:02:13 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

I don't belive any of our politicians or prominent political actors have come out in favour of internment camps or mass killing of civilians, so we're still ahead there.

As for us freeloading militarily, I keep hearing about that but do we actually? I've looked up the US troops in Europe and it's mostly either ground forces in Germany or forces in other countries because their geographical position is handy for the US, I guess you could say we freeload on nukes, but beyond that the only country that can realy be called a freeloader is Germany.

If we're happy spending bellow the NATO minimum then maybe the problem isn't so much us as the minimum?

As for anti-semitism, I don't think one can argue that this justified, it's not, it's blatant bigotry that should have no place anywhere. Its existence in the Middle East is due to both the Arab government and the Israeli government having a vested interest in conflating being anti-Israel and being anti-Semitic, but that's simply the reason for it being there, not a justification for it. If we're to stomp it out then we need to stop conflating the two, not do it ourselves like the article does.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:09:31 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

To be honest, I find American patriots some of the most annoying people on the Earth. Hearing them chant "USA! USA! USA!" all the time, saying they are the best in the world, belittling other countries and ignoring their achievements, and telling Europeans that they saved them in WWII really makes me angry.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:07:48 PM by Bat178

At least during the Libya campaign, France had to ask the US for extra ammunition. You guys do fine maintaining top of the line field equipment, but Europeans forces would have great difficulty deploying if not for US logistical support. The problem for me isn't Europe not doing it's fair share, though that does irk me a bit. It's people then turning around and demanding out of the US system and just generally making asses of themselves.

And I find Europeans smug and self righteousness to be just as irksome. We can be annoyed with each other all we like. Their are reasons the US and Europe are different, as are all cultures. We should try and not be dicks about our differences though. If I have done so than I apologize.

Edit: Oh and advocating something is a far cry from implementing it. Trump isn't the President yet, nor will he be if I have anything to say about it.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:17:07 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

My understanding of the Libya situation is that France didn't have to ask for extra ammo, it simply decided to to because it would rather that option then dig into any of its "in case of emergency" ammo reserves. Still fair point, some logistical development is needed by Europe.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

There is also Canada in North America, who are pretty much a mix of both the US and Europe politically (Though they lean more towards Europe than their southern neighbor).

edited 12th Feb '16 8:22:21 PM by Bat178

The dream of those in the military who want to join NATO is (outside of Article 5, which they don't trust) the use of the logistics system. Although if we do, morons will try and argue in favour of abandoning conscription which is unacceptable, and complete suicide.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

That has nothing to do with Americans loving their country more and more to do with the fact that you have to make a spectacle to even be recognized. European countries are much smaller and don't require the politicians making as much spectacle to be recognized nation wide.

The amount of money raised by the candidates in the US, and the way it's done, would also break virtually every single campaign financing law here.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

Not to mention that being financed by a corporation is a rather scandalous thing, at least by this side of America.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

Bosnia formally applied for membership of the European Union on Monday, although Brussels says it must carry out a series of reforms before the application can even be considered.

Honestly, this is a two way street. I am ready to bet that if you look closer at the people who marsh with Pegida, you'll find a number of Jews who are afraid of the sudden influx of Muslims. Thankfully there are also those who actively help the refugees.