European Politics Thread

...

???!

Well, ultimately, it doesn't hugely bother me if the European nations continue to be bullheaded about everything. You want to be a German nationalist? That's your own problem. I've got my own country with my own neighbors to deal with, from the failed state in the US and Mexico to the growing economic competition with China.

If anything, a disunified Europe makes my life easier.

That said, I'll always advocate for a Federal EU, because I think Europe is better off that way. If they don't want it, then fine, but I'll still tell them that it's the superior choice, because that's what I believe.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

It appears that me and Fly-o agree on something, for once.

End of Earth imminent.

In any case, the pooled soveriengty of the European nations leads to better control over the economy.

The EU is a major market for China and the US. If we can, at the very least, become a more unified EU, then we can compete with those two, while maintaining our lovely social policies.

I see that my comment referring to certain both countris as the new axis has been, let's 3say, misunderstood...

But i'd say that i don't think the EU is democratic, i don't think is representative of their peoples, i don't think is nothing but artificial bureaucracy where certain countries live over those others and i think it should disappear, British were clever enough with their approach

Haw Haw Haw

But the EU has the European Parliament in Strasbourg, which is directly elected by the citizens of member states.

European parliament is directly elected, but their duties aren't clear enough and the elections of the key offices are such in a very indirect way...A very complex and undemocratic way, i think...

And I don't like my sovereignity being left to people that doesn't seem to care for my country but theirs, and sometimes have screwed other countries for the goods of theirs, I think that this is hard double standard

And now, where the current policies are "off with their heads"...

Haw Haw Haw

So it sounds like the problem is not so much the structure itself but rather Europeans' attitudes.

The problem, IMAO, is that southern countries feel like we have been told that was a thing with unity, and solidarity and stuff, and we believed it...

Haw Haw Haw

Bah, in fact the smaller countries get overrepresented, there's nothing democratic about that. Germany has a third more people than France, the UK or Italy, double as many Spain, more than double than Poland, ten times the population of Greece - and it should be represented accordingly.

There was nothing about "solidarity" in the Euro treaties. There was even explicitly a clause disallowing financial aid!

edited 30th Dec '11 5:43:14 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

The problem (one of'em) is that the Parliament seems more like a consultive chamber than a legislative branch indeed...

Haw Haw Haw

wait, nevernmind...

edited 30th Dec '11 5:44:45 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

@ Cats. Yup.

@ Octo. The Parliament has an upper limit and lower limit. The minimum is three Members per constitiency (so countries like Malta, with 0.5mn people have three Members), and the upper limit is to stop the bigger nations (e.g. France, Germany, Britain) from controlling the entire Parliament.

@ Rach. Indeed so. It does debate over the raitifications of EC Directives, though.

edited 30th Dec '11 5:45:24 PM by Inhopelessguy

It's undemocratic! If Germany has 166 times the population of Malta, it should also have 166 times the amount of seats! My vote should have exactly the same weight as an individual Maltese vote! Anything else is grossly unfair and undemocratic!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Octo, it's have been reported tha France pressed in order to get agriculture markets on Italy and Spain get damaged in order to get their own market gettin more benefits...I don't imagine California doin' the same upon Nevada or Texas

Haw Haw Haw

Octo, I agree with you about the vote thing.

Haw Haw Haw

In the end, all South European countries are by far net receiver of EU money, even after the East Europeans joined. In fact, places in Portugal or the Mezziogorno profited immensely from European development aid. So I think purely financially the EU paid off for most of South Europe.

Heh, that's something we agree on, at least, then.

edited 30th Dec '11 5:49:18 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Um... cry me a river?

True democracy doesn't exist. We all live in democratic republics. So what if you don't get quite as much power as you might under a theoretical pure democracy? Quit complaining, Germany still is the most powerful force in the EU.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I don't think we have the least right to complain...Greece is guilty of very harsh fraudulent behavior that have put the whole Union at risk, Italy is guilty of being a total mess and Spain is guilty of being overlooking something that smelt very, very bad...But we don't need anybody -Read, agencies, Merkel- to make things difficult...We don't need all the cucumber-gate nor any more sovereignity violations.

Haw Haw Haw

I'm just complaining about two facts, the first, that the european union has a system that is inefficient and puts a long distance between people and its ultimate leaders, and second, that most of politicians in the EU doesn't have such thing as an european vocation but nationalistic, or worst, personal agendas. The fact that most european congressist are exiled from national parties where they are annoying doesn't help

Haw Haw Haw

Yeah, Strassbourg kinda ends up as the political 'leper colony' of European national parties, doesn't it? No wonder the parliament is thus so devoted pro-European - its members have rarely any other political career paths open to them. It's all personal ambition.

No more than is our due owing to our population. "True democracy doesn't exist" and hence we shouldn't even try? What crooked shit. If I don't get the same voting rights as a Maltese or a Greek, why the hell should I be for this union then?

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

And Writing Who I Know, do you want to know what is the problem with Spain? The problem is that all primary sector has been nearly dismantled, in part because of the European Agriculture Policies, in part because of a disproportionate growth of the Real Estate and building bussiness, there ain't no Industry or have been dismantled because it was no competitive or simply because of stupidness and services, that was the source of almost all PPP, was based on Tourism and Building and Real Estates ¿Guess what was a flop?

Haw Haw Haw

You do get the same voting rights. You get a vote. That vote gets you representation. It's not even the same realm.

Besides, ideally the EU would have a bifurcated legislative body like the US Congress, so people like you won't whine but the little countries actually get a say in what happens, too.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

It's not about the countries. It's about the people. Individual people. And no, if I have a vote of lesser weight than this means I don't have the same voting rights.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Would Octo be willing to vote for non-Germans as his representative?

Well then the individual people who make up the administrative area of Malta and Greece shouldn't have to get dragged along by the big three, because under your plan those people wouldn't mean a damn thing.

There's a reason nobody uses pure democracy: the minority has no rights in a pure democracy. Even I, a quirky moral relativist who thinks democracy sets societal morality, acknowledge and accept this, and thus embrace democratic republicanism. That's why you will never get to boss everyone around just because your administrative sector has the most people in it. Or rather, why you shouldn't be allowed to do so.

edited 30th Dec '11 6:11:09 PM by Flyboy

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."