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Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 9th 2024 at 3:24:05 PM
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Because higher inflation and devaluation is a terrible way to run an economy. Plus, it was no secret that neither was supposed to happen when the Southern countries joined.
Oh, bother.
As I recall, Germany has a rather unpleasant history with inflation and devaluation of their currency.
Exactly!!! Other countries consider our point of view paranoid, but it was clear that it was part of the package of the Euro from the get go.
The current ECB policy had its' justification in 2012 and helped saving the Euro. Bit now it has become harmful to the future of the Euro, because it punishes people who have their savings in the banks, creastes huge fiscal imbalances via Target II and most importantly, gives Southern Europe a false sense of security. Particulary Italy has in the last few years noticeable slowed down its' reform attempts. It has become quite clear that the only way countries (which probably would include Germany too) need constant pressure if they are to pass the necessary reforms to regain their competivness.
Edit: Case in point, the formee Greek chief statistician Andreas Georgiou has been sentenced to jail. His crime? He revealed in 2009 that his office had been lying over the budget deficite for years. In other countries you'd probably get an award for this. In Greece you go to jail.
edited 30th Mar '17 12:46:53 AM by Zarastro
A procrastination in of itself
The current inflation paranoid way of running things is a pretty terrible way to run an economy, at least inflation and devaluation has some grounding in actual ecneomcis, as opposed to the paranoia about inflation that is based largely not on actual economics but on either a desire to keep the retired well off at the expense of the national economy or a simplistic understanding of how Hitler came to power.
edited 30th Mar '17 1:31:02 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Yes, a finance minister sabotaging the economy by printing unsustainable amounts of money in order to attract American reparation loans and the French getting wise to it and occupying the Ruhr.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
It was more complicated than that. But history is written by the winners.
That has little to do with Hitler but with a keen understanding that the worth of a currency - of any currency - is based on trust. If we keep devaluing the Euro it becomes a worthless currency which will eventually lead to a loss of trust in it, which will eventually damage our economies. There is a REASON why Germany has done so well while for example Italy, which has a history of devaluation, didn't.
edited 30th Mar '17 2:12:49 AM by Swanpride
United Earth
Hardly. See 'Lost Cause'.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
This is information from a declassified Weimar Republic-era archive. This is history written by the people who made it.
We could also bring up how, the minute the Weimar Republic gained control of its customs union back, it started to slow down payments to a trickle, and that was part of the French casus belli for the Ruhr occupation.
The Weimar Republic was just as happy to cook the books as the regime that replaced it.
edited 30th Mar '17 2:19:30 AM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Germany still had its industrial base after the war.
The logic behind this refusal was that Germany, with its intact industries, infrastructure and bigger manpower base, would recover very quickly and be able to gut an exsangue & scarred France whom had lost most of her industrial & mining heart, which the Germans armies had pillaged and destroyed during their retreat.
Instead, the German Republic was asked to pay for 132 billions marks over a long period (roughly equivalent to US $442 billion or UK £284 billion in 2017.) and to demilitarize.
The logic was that Germany needed to be "leashed" until France could recover, which was not a mere financial issue. Long story short, the German Military & Industrial elite dodged nearly all responsibility for WW 1 and did their best to undermine the republic for most of its existence, with the head of the Reichbank intentionally sabotaging the country's economy to bank on Anglo-American sympathy and force the former entente powers on the negotiation table until the arrival of the true architect of German recovery in 1924.
The French Military was furious with the Treaty of Versailles, people like Foch knew that Germany had not been truly defeated by "arms" and would retain massive economical & industrial superiority with such terms.
And he was right. From 1924 to 1930, Germany was already on top of her former enemies.
You ever wondered why a majority in countries like Greece and Italy still want to keep the Euro instead of going back to the Drachma/Lira. It might have simething to do with the assumptiin that they appreaciate having a stable currency. It is not like having high inflation is actually beneficial to the common people either.
Oh, bother.
For some reason, this all reminds me a lot of the ACA. It sucks, there's tons of problems with it, lots of people have rather justifiable concerns about it...and it's still so much better than what preceded it.
The free market and health insurance do not work well together.
edited 30th Mar '17 3:31:25 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
Everything related to politics is that way. In a way the best solution tends to be the one with which nobody is truly satisfied. In this case though it is not just the Germans who like to have a stable currency, they are just the most sensitive about the matter. It is mostly politicians who like the idea of devaluing because it is such an easy solution...seemingly.
As you say, things can have flaws yet still be too valiable to replace. Case in point, the UN, while being largely ineffective in recent years, platform, is still too important to scrap. No one wants to go back to the pre-WWI backroom-diplomacy. Well, maybe Trump, bit that guy has no clue.
To quote an Italian Erasmus-student I've spoken with: We don't want the Spielgeld (funny money, worthless money ) back.
edited 30th Mar '17 3:56:57 AM by Zarastro
Oh, bother.
In the immortal words of Calvin, "A good compromise leaves everybody mad."
Disgusted, but not surprised
So apparently the next European leader to have a meeting with SCROTUS is the Prime Minister of Denmark.
Oh, this'll be good.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Elvenking
Well at least he's unlikely to be as spineless as Kenny.
'All shall love me and despar!'
You have very high expectations of our Prime Minister.
And you're going to be disappointed
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
The same thing I said for Trump's meeting with Xi: I hope the PM speaks slowly and uses small words for Trump. And maybe gives him a binkie to keep him calm.
Well, found an article giving a tall order that doesn't boil down to f*** Germany. (Warning! Do not read the comments if you value your idealism!)
Does Germany Hold the Key to Defeating Populism?
there are stark attitudinal differences between Germany and other Western countries, as reactions to recent terrorist attacks highlight. Whereas French President Francois Hollande stated that “We are at war” and declared a state of emergency in the wake of the 2015 Paris attacks, Merkel’s reaction to the 2016 Berlin Christmas market attack was quiet, calm, and comforting. While Trump used the occasion of the Orlando Pulse massacre to congratulate himself on his own doomsday prognostications, the German people have “refused to panic.”
Germany’s economic fundamentals are not spectacularly stronger than other countries’. Germany currently enjoys a 4.6 percent unemployment rate, about the same as America’s current 4.7 percent and not substantially lower than the Danish 6.2 percent or Dutch 6.9 percent. As in many other Western countries, Germany’s economy is projected to grow 1-2 percent in the next year.
Besides, commentators have noted that economic performance is no predictor of the appeal of economic populism. And even if Germany’s relatively healthy economy may ease the pressures on Merkel’s ruling coalition, it does not explain away the Af D’s poor electoral prospects.
The appeal of populists lies not merely in the economic policies they promise to implement, but rather in their ability to tap into the cultural and social anxieties of voters who feel that globalization threatens their way of life, even their very identity. A key reason for the Af D’s comparatively weak allure can be found in Germany’s unique relationship to national memory.
Unlike virtually any other country, Germany has, over the seven decades since the Holocaust, dedicated itself to inculcating in its citizens a clear-eyed awareness of and responsibility for its crimes. It is this wariness of the radical right and national sense of duty to stand against racism and extremism that render Germans generally less susceptible to right-wing populism today, despite the continuing presence of radical, and sometimes violent, fringe movements.
Af D candidate Björn Höcke’s broadside against [the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe] in January ...brought fears about the party to a fever pitch and unleashed a torrent of criticism against the Af D. Höcke had said that Germans “are the only people in the world to plant a monument of shame in the heart of our capital,” and he was probably correct. But this is not, as he believes, evidence of German weakness. It’s a testament to the country’s moral leadership.
Germany’s engagement with its sins marks a radical break with how most states define their nationhood...To some extent, each country stands on the wrongs of its past; behind every nationalist myth lies some crime or other. Great Britain has never fully acknowledged the monstrosity of imperialism, which robbed untold wealth from the developing world, murdered millions, and in which Arendt saw the early seeds of fascism. Nor has France ever truly recognized the evil of its own colonial empire or the insidious collaboration of many French people with the Nazis. The United States has never come close to fully acknowledging the role of slavery in building the country, the depravations of Jim Crow, or the Native American genocide upon which the nation was founded.
The connection between these unacknowledged deeds and the furious racism and xenophobia of today’s right wing may be subtle, but it is unmistakable. It was imperial nostalgia that helped convince Britons to break their bonds with Europe. What did Theresa May’s call to a “global Britain” harken back to, if not the lost empire? How else to explain the unusually high support of former French Algerian colonists and their families—so-called pied-noirs—for Le Pen’s National Front? And how else to make sense of the American far right’s own defense of the continued brutalization of minorities, and its affection for totems of racism like the Confederate flag?
All countries have their original sins, but only Germany has fully named its sin and sought expiation for it. If the rest of the world hopes to counter the populist revolution, it might do well to emulate Germany.
edited 30th Mar '17 8:52:01 AM by CenturyEye
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Makes a fair bit of sense. I did go to school in Germany and they do take the racism and prejudice and the consequences thereof subject fairly seriously.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Again, you have very high expectations of our Prime Minister.
I do not.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Your link leads directly to the comment section - you might want to change that. :/
edited 30th Mar '17 8:28:53 AM by DrunkenNordmann
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
I think it is a little bit more than just the awareness of the past. We are actively taught to recognize manipulation, to question our leaders and to develop our own theories and idea. The best marks I ever got in school and university I got whenever I poked holes in some sort of theory or put together my own thesis. Neither the UK nor the US school system seems to operate on that level.
I can't speak for the US, but your assumption about the UK is incorrect.
What the UK doesn't widely teach (and suffers accordingly for) is political science and economics (the resources for these get funnelled into public schools, leaving state schools struggling to accommodate them, thereby making them not as widespread as they should be and creating elitist mentality issues).
In terms of critical thinking skills for other subjects, educational attainment actually does teach and require it. There has been some very problematic political interference in recent years has increasingly narrowed which subjects have responsibility for 'critical thinking'. (Especially since 2010; yes, the same government that brought us Brexit and Theresa May - as you'll see from the rest of my post, that's probably not an accident).
In my day, everything taught some aspect of critical thinking. And, like you, I obtained high marks for my critical thinking, even when I poked holes in so-called beloved 'institutions'. I was hardly unique in the UK for doing so, and my schools and universities were not unique for encouraging it.
The problem the UK has is not with the teaching of critical thinking, it's the place school holds within society. Children that go through school with a massive chip on their shoulder about schooling and teachers (for whatever reason) pass that chip onto their children and actively defend their children against the school whenever a conflict arises. It's an attitude that has been encouraged (but not created) for political reasons by right-wing parties, including the Tories.
There is an ingrained belief within society that there is something wrong with knuckling down to school or, worse, enjoying it and thriving in it. It is perpetrated by previous generations enforcing any anti-school behaviour that occurs within their children and grandchildren - anti-school behaviour that is taught in the first place (either consciously or unconsciously) by those previous generations. It's something the Tories encourage via their 'entrepreneurial' and 'self-employed' ideologies — don't bother with school, it's hard work that'll get you everything you ever wanted.
It's an attitude that 'life teaches' and school doesn't. The only way to have a decent education is get out into the work place as early as possible, preferably doing a 'real' job and not some kind 'fake' job (which funnily enough are types of jobs you often need qualifications for). People who grafts their life away are the only people entitled to opinions, because they've 'earned' their opinions in the 'real world'. Unlike everyone else.
As a result of this, certain educational subjects get treated worse than others; the STEM subjects, for example, as well as political science and economics, are seen as being for wasters. Anyone with a science or mathematics or economics degree is seen as having a 'Mickey Mouse' degree - wasting tax-payers money obtaining non-degrees that won't help them get a 'real' job.
There is a reason why Brexit support is so heavily linked to education levels[1]. Many (not all, but many) Brexit supporters are very much products of this anti-education aspect of society. And you can see it in the kind of arguments and assumptions they make about how the EU works. In fact, you can see this from the tactics used by the Leave campaign during the referendum. This is what they targeted: the anti-schooling mentality, because it's so heavily linked to anti-establishment ('no-one tells me what to do!') mentality.
[1] Remain voting was linked to higher educational attainment and Leave voting was strongly linked to lower educational attainment; deviations from this trend were found to have been affected by ethnic mixing - areas of low educational attainment but high immigration were much more Remain leaning than even areas of higher education attainment but almost no immigration; mostly, immigration was linked to education levels anyway (and jobs/prosperity/etc.)[2] - but not universally, and that's where the deviations occurred.
[2] Unlike the prevailing myth in the UK, immigration tends to go towards places that have prosperity and available jobs, so most immigration into a country is also where graduates go from other regions of the same country (thereby contributing to the immigration statistics for that region, even though they're native people). The Leave campaign used the myth that immigrants go into poverty-stricken regions where jobs are in short-supply, steal what jobs exist, and that's why the locals are suffering. Except that these almost always the regions where there's very low, or almost no, immigration occurring.
edited 30th Mar '17 1:36:51 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
To the best of my knowledge nobody in Southern Europe is asking for it both ways, what is needed is higher inflation and devaluation of the euro, something that Northern Europe (in particular but not solely Germany) has been very resistant to.
edited 29th Mar '17 10:48:54 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran