Subbers becoming weeaboo-ish?

But its not like theres always multiple sub groups subbing a show. Some shows only have one sub group subbing them as apposed to shows like naruto with multiple subbing groups.

....Why

Exactly, and it would be even better if the dubs would do the same, so everyone would be forced to learn Japanese, in the same way as everyone had to learn French when we arranged to hide lots of Gratuitous French in Beauty and the Beast, like Monsieur, or Mademoiselle, so it was completely meaningless for normal folks.

It's not fully subjective. While some phrases are up to debate, like you could say that Nakama isn't a complete loanword yet, or that very few people know what kisama means, and it wouldn't be instantly understood by enough viewers, it's clear that there are like half a dozen basic honorifics that anyone can be expected to understand. Any argument that those words must be removed just for the sake of making the work more english, are just plain wrong, and goes against the principles of translation.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:38:54 AM by EternalSeptember

This attitude really annoys me.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.

That's not an attitude, that's a fact of life.

It is still annoying depending in how one take it, though. It sound isolationist and dumb.

But, anyway, I don't think simple honorifics are that alien for non-fans anyway. At one point of my life I wasn't a otaku and I had no idea of what 'chan' means. I remember, however, it didn't take long for me to learn. Also, even general audience may know what 'san' or even 'sama' means (the use both in Shogun, for example). Furthermore, if you don't understand the honorific you won't lose the meaning completely, so it is not intrusive.

I don't think I ever seem anyone let 'kisama' untranslated. Or Nakama, for that matter (I don't watch One Piece). The latter has a very simple translation, and the former is not that hard to translate and, unlike honorifics, it do stand in the way if you don't know the word.

edited 22nd Jun '11 9:04:58 AM by Heatth

It's not elitist, it's more...isolationist. It's not implying that we're better than others, it's saying that it's catering to a specific group with a particular taste.

Thanks, I knew it sounded off, but I couldn't find a better word.

edited 22nd Jun '11 9:05:32 AM by Heatth

I'd say that for me there are certain words and terms which I don't mind being left untranslated, and some which I do mind. Honorifics are fine. Loanwords are fine. Words without a decent translation are also fine.

On the other hand, not translating words which have a perfectly good translation and are always used in the same context as their translation - such as umi and its translation (ocean) - this is pure pandering to people who want as little translated as possible. Baka is another word which fits this, usually, even though a significant proportion of anime/manga fans know exactly what it means already. (That said, when a conversation relies on homophones or other puns, I tend to err toward the side of leaving it untranslated. Better to have a note with translations than a note saying why a translation fell flat, I think.)

I should note though that I consider names an exception to this, which should be translated as the language they are from (So the afore-mentioned Akane should be left as-is and not translated to Rose despite also being a name, but Arufonsu/Aru should be changed to Alphonse/Al).

EDIT: I don't think I've ever seen "kisama" left untranslated; I had to look it up just now to find out what it meant, and I'm still not sure if I fully understand. I have seen "nakama" untranslated though, even though I think there was enough context to translate it each time.

edited 22nd Jun '11 9:12:46 AM by Sabbo

That's not exactly the right word either. Mainstream audiences not being interested in anime, isn't our choice of isolation, it's a fact. It's inherently caused by the settings, tropes, and genres that it uses.

So it's not so much "Hey, let's stop normal people from watching anime by blocking it's accessibility with random japanese words", as "It doesn't matter if a subtitle translates every sama and baka and nakama, in the end, still only otaku will watch it, so we might as well translate it for ouselves, instead of a hypothetical mainstream audience".

edited 22nd Jun '11 9:11:32 AM by EternalSeptember

The only times words like "Baka", "Kisama", "Nakama" or whatever should not be translated is if its part of a pun, or some sort of word play. Like if two characters are playing Shiratori, don't try to fuck around and make it make sense in English, just give the words they are saying, and if the actual meaning is important, put the meaning in parentheses.

No, it is the word I was looking for. The way the sentence was phrased can be interpreted as "Hey, let's stop normal people from watching anime by blocking it's accessibility with random Japanese words". I know (or I hope) it wasn't the case, but it could very well be. Some die hard weeboo do have this dumb mentality.

I agree. Particularly about the names bit, btw. Hate when people keep the "Japanese-ish" name for no good reason. I still remember the time when people would say 'Raito' after it have become obvious it was supposed to be 'Light'.

This is actually unprofessional behavior and usually frown upon, I think. But, then again, if you can't think in a better pun or if the meaning of the pun is actually important, I am not against just letting untranslated. Specially if it is a fansub (which is not professional and aimed at otaku, anyway)

edited 22nd Jun '11 9:18:04 AM by Heatth

Argh, hate people who don't get how Katakana works.

Absolutely agree, if a name is clearly supposed to be non-Japanese, try to figure out what the fuck it is, and don't leave it as some phonetically pronounced monstrosity.

And people who get all up in arms over the roman spelling of words that originated in Katakana. HURR DURR ITS DAIZENGAR NOT DYGENGUAR BECAUSE ITS CLEARLY "GREAT ZENGAR" AND NOT A CONTRACTION OF "DYNAMIC GENERAL GUARDIAN" HURR HURR

There isnt much logic in keeping a pun that you would not understand in the first place.

....Why

I'm kinda 'meh' on honorifics, in general if its not like explicitly Japanese, I'd prefer English titles or terms of endearment. But I'm really against it when it makes no sense in context. Like in a Code Geass spin-off manga I read, there's no reason for the Britannians to be using honorifics like -San or -Sama.

And if you're gonna use Japanese honorifics, at least try to get them right and not be completely arbitrary. I once read a PSG fanfic where the Demon Sisters kept refering to each other with honorific they never used in the show.I know thats a nitpick, but if you're gonna be a weaboo, at least try to be accurate. Oh and don't randomly throw cliched words like 'Bakas' into it, you look a complete frakking tool.

These are the words that shall come from my mouth. I shall be known for speaking them.

Characters saying “manga” in translated dialog would only make sense in uses where the subject of the word was what a fluent English speaker would actually refer to as “manga.” Dragon Ball? Yes. Superman? No. Anime characters shouldn't talk like neanderthals.

I call shenanigans on “ave,” as it's rarely used outside references to some catholic prayers in English, both cases would always be translated as “hail Ceasar.” It's all about context.

The thing about loanwords is that they only make sense in fiction where they make sense in real life. If I'm a native English speaking Ordinary High-School Student talking to my teacher, and neither of us are japanophiles, would I plausibly use a word like “sensei”? No, of course not, no normal person uses words like that out of the blue. I might use a more common loanword, like “banzai,” “tycoon,” “sayonara,” or “tsunami,” which are actual Japanese loanwords used in such everyday conversation.

I have literally never seen such slipshod professional translation outside the otaku sphere. I hate to get all snotty sounding, but here's a pretty simple challenge: Show me one single reasonably prestigious translation of a non-Japanese work into English (or, heck, even a non-anime/manga/game work from Japan) that uses the sort of mutant vocabulary you're talking about.

You wanna do that? Fine, then you don't need translations any more. You want a translation? Then it's translated into real English,instead of some monstrous pidgin.

Kill It with Fire. Translating linguistic humor is like vivisecting a butterfly, you'll understand it, but all the aesthetic appeal will be lost. Adjust as needed, or just replace them with something from whole cloth if it comes to that, and explain the original in (separate) translator's notes.

Eric,

Show me one single reasonably prestigious translation of a non-Japanese work into English (or, heck, even a non-anime/manga/game work from Japan) that uses the sort of mutant vocabulary you're talking about.

Ah, but you see, you are under the highly mistaken assumption that I (or many other people) give a damn about "prestigious translations".

Thats the thing, I don't care what is "accepted", or "professional", I want the translation that best enhances my experience, and that translation will include honorifics, original name order, and a few other "wrong" ways of doing things.

There are limits, as I've mentioned, TV-Nihon is the most well known offender in this area, but there are others, but I'd prefer erring on the side of undertanslating than overtranslating.

Edit: This has become less of an issue of late, the advent of the MKV container and the ease of use of Aegisub makes it childs play to adjust a script to fit personal preferences.

Good god I had to do so much work to CR's translation of Hourou Musuko. Swapped name order and no honorifics in a show where the entire plot revolves around the subtle interactions and relationships of the characters, with multiple occasions of crossdressing and gender confusion? Good god it was unwatchable in its original form. Actually painful.

edited 22nd Jun '11 10:41:31 AM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Of course. It's not like anybody watches subs to understand the show.

Your unironic use of a meaningless-through-overblown-and-hyperbolic-usage insult and the "learning Japanese" crap aside, what's wrong with preferring subs to horrible dubs? I do that with Gurren Lagann, because the German dub is really awful. What's wrong with that?

edited 22nd Jun '11 11:12:09 AM by Nyarly

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.

Also, anyone who uses the term "Weeaboo" unironically automatically loses the argument.

^ I agree.

#IceBearForPresident

For anyone who supports subbers refusing to translate things, just consider this: imagine a professor in a class told you to translate something, and you did it, but left in honorifics and random japanese words. He'd fail you for it on the spot, probably.

Uhh...and?

You really aren't getting the point here.

...and we care why?

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I fail to see the relevance.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

If you say "random Japanese words" you clearly are not understanding what we are talking about. Furthermore, fiction translation and academic translation are different things.

Japanese honorifics are not random japanese words, they are in the english dictionary.

And by the way, that's depending on the context. For a beginner whose translation text is just supposed to prove that he knows what the honorifics mean, that would fail, but for any kind of more complex translation, it could be justified, even in an academic text.

At least I'm pretty sure that I would have failed my english class here in Hungary sooner for arbitarily translating down Mr. Smith as Kovács Úr, than for leaving "random" english words in the translated text.

edited 22nd Jun '11 3:13:51 PM by EternalSeptember