Jupiterian Local
I dunno, I find that quote kinda confusing. I like the current one.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
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Confusing? How so?
Jupiterian Local
The part about "you're no damn good" makes it sound like Joe's neither good nor nice. Knowing nothing else about the work, it makes me think that Joe is just sort of a Jerkass and God is giving him a chance to fix that.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Boiled and Mashed
I also believe the DnD quote fits the trope better.
Anyways in the Sliding Scale Of Antiheroes thread, I suggested making Jerkass Hero or Jerkass Antihero the main name for the article. Thoughts? Does that seem more unambiguous?
edited 1st Nov '11 10:20:50 PM by arks
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No damn good UNLESS he takes this opportunity to do what has to be done. It is the context that communicates this, not the wording.
Jupiterian Local
Right, but the wording makes it confusing. I'm not saying that it's not an example of Good Is Not Nice, I'm just saying that the way it's phrased would make it a confusing page quote.
Good Is Not Nice isn't necessarily about about The Hero being a Jerkass, though. If they have to Shoot the Dog or something along those lines For the Greater Good, then that's also Good Is Not Nice.
edited 2nd Nov '11 7:30:40 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Boiled and Mashed
Where does it say that?
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Jupiterian Local
Type 4: "He may want to be a nice person, but believes in tough love and doing whatever it takes to get the job done, no matter how unpleasant."
Boiled and Mashed
Ah, good. One clause which in an entire description which contradicts the rest (though, kind of ambiguously). That's easily fixable. Also, it happens to bring a grammatical error to my attention.
The entire rest of the description says the good guy is a Jerkass. The YKTTW says
the good guy is a Jerkass (though they both don't use those exact words, they have the same meaning) the Laconic says the good guy is a Jerkass (well, actually, a "dick", but same meaning). The trope is the good guy is a Jerkass.
Now, if we have a Sub-Trope that states being good is what requires him to be a Jerkass, that might be an interesting distinction.
I just realized there's going to be a lot of example clean-up because people were unclear on the definition. I blame the title.
edited 4th Nov '11 3:04:32 AM by arks
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Wait, you just figured out what the OP was talking about?
Boiled and Mashed
Conversation had moved on from there. I was bringing it back.
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Ah, my mistake. To me, the overlap of the two makes splitting it pointless.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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Come to think of it, my previous interpretation of this is probably more similar to Shoot the Dog than I previously realized, while Jovian's is much more unique. I may not consider it as interesting a trope, but I guess Jovian's makes more sense to have as a separate one.
Now to wait on mods to confirm one way or another what this trope is, and adjust the description to clarify it.
edited 11th Nov '11 9:14:31 AM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
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Bump...
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
For me, part of the confusion of the definition comes from the fact that we also have Good Is Not Soft, when many people seem to be using parts of this trope for that one. I'd like to make a distinction between the two.
Jupiterian Local
I'm not sure what Good Is Not Soft is trying to be. It seems to overlap a lot with Shoot the Dog and I Did What I Had to Do.
...you know, rereading Good Is Not Nice, I think I may have been mistaken before. I'm not sure if this is about good guys doing not-nice things out of necessity, or good guys who are just not-nice in general, or what exactly.
Maybe we should revamp it as a supertrope? It would include things like Good Is Not Soft, Shoot the Dog, I Did What I Had to Do, etc. We should probably spin off a subtrope for "good guy who is also a jerk" — Jerkass Hero is currently a redirect for Good Is Not Nice, that's probably a good name for that subtrope.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
So...if I understand you right, you went Good Is Not Nice to be an index, with tropes of heroic (and antiheroic) actions. I assume a see also for antihero. Make Jerkass Hero for "heroic" and unpleasant characters. Then use Good Is Not Soft for heroes that use morally ambiguous means on a regular basis.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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I was waiting for an opportunity to use that. 
But yeah, these tropes have a lot of similarities and overlap, and an index involving them could be useful.
edited 9th Jan '12 6:44:24 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Jupiterian Local
Not necessarily an index, but a supertrope. Good Is Not Nice would cover any example of Good people not being Nice people. Subtropes would be more specific things like Shoot the Dog (a nice person doing something un-nice for a good reason), Jerkass Hero (a person who does good things but is sort of a dick), etc.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Define "good" and "nice", then. Because I'm not sure where you're going yet.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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I think the distinction is that "good" is about what is morally right in general, whereas "nice" is more specifically associated with things like politeness, kindness, etc... which may in some circumstances go against what is right overall.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
That's what I would've thought the Jerkass Hero would cover. I'm not sure what Good Is Not Nice is troping.
EDIT: I'm not sure what examples fall under Good Is Not Nice under the proposed supertrope plan.
edited 13th Jan '12 9:10:22 PM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Jupiterian Local
Jerkass Hero is currently a redirect to Good Is Not Nice. We're proposing splitting it out, and making Good Is Not Nice a supertrope for stuff like Jerkass Hero, Shoot the Dog, I Did What I Had to Do, Dirty Business, etc. All the tropes where "good" and "nice" conflict.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
That said, my Joe Clark quote works for either interpretation of the trope. So, any other objections to replacing the current one with it?
edited 1st Nov '11 4:00:10 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart