Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

I'm just gonna go ahead and take a wild guess at what the politics of an armed Christian survivalist group are like...

Are you doubting the existence of Christian Socialism!?

Such ignominy will not stand!

I do think Christian survivalist group would have conservative views. However, reading from them, they actually are not the extreme type. And I do still believe that linking this man's radicalization with them is a big misstep. The name "RIOT" does sound like an alt-right name, but don't be misled they have been around before the alt-right became a thing.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/austin-bomber-recording-not-sorry-psychopath_us_5ab42009e4b0decad0483db2

Here are some more revelations about his motivations. And it seems like he's just someone who didn't give a damn at all about the world.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:06:17 PM by firewriter

Just because they pre-date the alt right doesn't mean the aren't alt right.

He's a terrorist. Period, end of sentence. The blathering on about how "they can't label him because they don't know his motive" is nonsense because if he was Muslim—or nonwhite—he'd already be labeled.

These people are not alt-right. And labeling them as such is really misleading. They are an outdoors/bible group. At first I myself thought they were the bunker type of survivalists, but I was proven wrong when I actually read more about them.

The Parkland shooter was involved with an alt-right group, while this guy hasn't. The former has more reason to have the terrorist label than the latter. The shooter was more clear about his motives than this guy.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:15:41 PM by firewriter

Then use that as your reason why they aren't alt-right, not "they have been around before the alt-right became a thing."

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:14:29 PM by sgamer82

The Oathkeepers were around long before the alt-right, that doesn't mean much. And while that group he was in doesn't exactly sound like the Taliban, bible study, firearms training, and survivalism don't exactly bring to mind a harmless bunch. One girl who was in the group with him even recalled casually chatting about chemicals that would be useful to make bombs, and discussing guerrilla tactics.

His political motivations here seem extremely clear, given his history of statements on things like immigration and gay marriage. I don't think you can argue in good faith that his group was harmless and he's just some nihilist.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:15:25 PM by archonspeaks

The guy is a right-wing terrorist. Irrespective of whether he qualifies as "alt-right" which is a nebulous term to start with (Nazis were around before the alt-right. Still a part of it).

But hey, you want to get finicky about language? He's a white supremacist Christian conservative terrorist. There ya go.

@ archonspeaks

I don't think that's a result of that group, but more like this guy had warning signs to look out for and they probably should have kicked him out once he started babbling about bombs. Nothing indicates that this was a radical group that poisoned a man's mind. As one of the female members said, he was really weird and mentioned how he could use bombs to his advantage.

I mean, I agree he likely wasn't radicalized entirely by that group, but come on. Even if they weren't totally responsible they clearly exacerbated it, and they most definitely hardened his political views.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:21:41 PM by archonspeaks

Remember guys, when a Christian terrorist blows up multiple people in a white supremacist rage we shouldn't examine the ideology of the survivalist group he belonged to.

When someone from Nation of Islam says something positive about BLM though, that's evidence that BLM are a terrorist affiliated cell. I mean, that just goes without saying.

I believe blaming a survivalist group for his psychotic behavior is a misstep. It actually makes me wish they could have captured him alive, so we could fully know his motive. It's like saying that someone being apart of a chemistry class is going to automatically make them turn extreme. It would be a good indication to have be more on the alert for warning signs for people like this.

The problem is that unlike alt-righters like the Parkland shooter or Dylan Roof, he didn't have a manifesto detailing his motive to kill all people of color. It's more ambiguous at this time than people are willing to admit.

Also I didn't call BLM a terrorist group with being too cozy with Nation of Islam. I called them problematic when they get close to them.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:30:12 PM by firewriter

And there's the false equivalence. Chemistry class to a survivalist group? Really?

Except a ultraconservative armed religious group and a chemistry class are two very different things.

Look, I'm not saying this group is solely responsible for his behavior. He clearly had some issues, and he definitely learned a lot of his politics from his parents. Being part of this group definitely didn't help though, and the fact that you're ready to overlook their role in this is surprising given how obvious a connection between the group and his extreme political views there is.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:29:34 PM by archonspeaks

People here are actually calling this group an ultraconservative group, when there is no proof but stereotypes based on the behavior of actual alt-right groups. To get a good idea of what survival groups are like read things online, instead of getting into hysteria about linking them to radicalization. When you read about non-extreme survival groups then you will realize why it's very iffy to tie them to this guy. And I believe people are overestimating the influence this group actually had on this man.

https://survivallife.com/join-survival-group/

I would say BLM should know better than to get involved with Nation Of Islam, which is anti-Semitic and just plain unpleasant.

These people didn't do jack to radicalize this guy. He was already displaying signs of it when he was in school. This survivalist group wasn't an armed resist group like Oath Keepers.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:40:23 PM by firewriter

That website won't even open due to unsafe scripts, so I'm going to assume the content is equally shady .

But in this case, the group he was a part of was actually ultraconservative. Hell, it's right there in the name. They weren't a survival group, they were an explicitly Conservative Christian survival group. They literally discussed guerrilla warfare and the collapse of society.

Also, Farrakhan saying a few approving things about BLM doesn't make them "involved" with Nation of Islam.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:41:49 PM by archonspeaks

Article won't open for me either. Says it's running an illegal script. Can't say I'm surprised.

Anyway folks we've arrived at the point in the conversation where someone is trying to prove Black Lives Matter are terrorists, while defending militia groups and claiming a white supremacist Mad Bomber isn't a terrorist. I think that means we've officially moved into bad faith territory.

Speaking of which, there are protests in Sacramento, California over the shooting of an unarmed black man in his grandmother's backyard (the house he was staying at). Apparently the police mistook the cell phone in his hand for a weapon of some kind while pursuing him as a suspect for some minor vandalism.

I guess this sort of thing is sadly background noise at this point, amidst all the sympathizing with white probably-terrorists, but I think it's important to keep posting links.

edited 23rd Mar '18 12:37:41 AM by Clarste

A sad consequence of a combination of good ol' systemic institutionalized racism and police training that emphasizes shooting immediately if they even think they are in danger.

I saw that article just a few posts down the Slate article on a friend's FB feed, it was what inspired me to type out that sarcastic bitching. If those two complementing each other isn't a good screenshot of race matters in USA, I don't know what is.

edited 23rd Mar '18 1:06:33 AM by Pachylad

Honestly the police training in the US is seriously down for a reform and massive revision.

The US is hardly that violent to begin with but puts a lot on emphasis, shoot first ask questions later if you feel threatened instead of don't fucking shoot unless you have to because there is no other fucking good choice.

For the fucks sake America, even the hellhole with a civil war tier murder rate I live in, has better training standard and accountability for the use of deadly force.

One issue is that police reform is something that has to happen on a precinct by precinct manner. The US police are very decentralized. It's one of the reasons a problem officer who was fired from one department can migrate to another one.

Speaking of which, totally not terrorist.