"You're not allowed free speech in the Jefferson Memorial"

But is dancing speech?

<><

Yes. Dancing or, say, a theatrical performance are a form of expression. Expression is speech.

edited 29th May '11 7:32:21 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

The question, though, is not about freedom of speech, it's about whether or not disturbing public peace and intentionally provoking a police officer is against the law.

Turns out it is. No correct side here, folks.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Apparently it is not permitted at the memorial and they knew it. At this point the cop was tactless but he is technically correct on the grounds that freedom of speech in the form of dance at the memorial was not allowed. He could have been specific and cited the court case as he should have known about it.

I would be more after the courts then the cops, because this is not as likely effective or speedy, as a direct court challenge citing the permission to protest on the sites owned by the government.

edited 29th May '11 7:42:52 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

I agree with this.

How about skateboarding? Parkour? Kung Fu?

Where is the line between "expression" and "activity"?

edited 29th May '11 7:37:35 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><

@Teufel: Actually, there is something on which cops and libertarians should agree on:

There should be a way to get standing for a challenge to a law without having to antagonize the cop who's on duty, get arrested and be convicted before they'll let you challenge it.

Until then, most attempts to challenge an unconstitutional/vague/unreasonably authoritarian law will result on fired/tried cops and libertarians bruised/charged with misdemeanors.

It's indeed vague and blurry: The most widely applied rule of thumb is to assume something is speech unless proven otherwise.

edited 29th May '11 7:57:03 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

seriously? this what they're protesting? couldn't they find something important to protest at least?

This confuse me about US law

> "in order to maintain an atmosphere of calm, tranquility, and reverence."

if this allowed, WBC can be kicked from funeral isn't it ?

Funerals don't happen on Federal property, not usually, except for Arlington.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.

No matter how stupid the law is, a policeman has to protect it. Encouraging cops to protest laws they see as bad would result in chaos - just imagine a scenario with two people breaking a minor law. One may get away with it, and the other be punished for the sole reason of the cops sent to punish them having differing political opinions. That would quickly make its way not only to minor intraction, but also major crimes.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

What I meant is that people should be allowed to raise legal challenges to laws without having to go through the trouble of getting in trouble with a cop and managing to get convicted by the lower court so they can appeal to the State Supreme Court or the SCOTUS.

The procedures to do it as they stand, they create unneccessary bad blood: They get lots of cops fired and lots of activists beaten.

As for non-enforcement of stupid or oppressive laws, I've gotta disagree with you: Everyone opposes really bad stuff, like robbery, kidnapping, rape or murder. Most people don't give a flying fuck about drugs, gambling, prostitution, dodging sales taxes, working under the table and the like. If the cops deliberately ignored laws relating to minor stuff people don't give a damn about, we'd all have much freer lives.

edited 30th May '11 3:50:52 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Flat "What".

I'm pretty sure that people give a damn about these things. Some of them people might oppose banning (prostitution for example), but drugs? Yeah, I'm sure no one gives a shit about a crackhouse on their block.

edited 30th May '11 4:08:02 AM by KingZeal

Thing is, as much as you hate this phrase, a lot of those things are illegal for peoples' own good. Prostitution to protect both the prostitutes*

and their clients, drugs to prevent robberies due to not being able to afford their habit, *

^{Now whether this happens because there's no cheap, legal alternative is a whole different topic}

dodging taxes because those, you know, pay for shit like roads.

Also, not sure how many people actually don't give a shit about those things. Maybe not most young folks, but I've got a feeling the last generation or two don't care for those things going on.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

Someone probably already said this, but it's not the police officer saying this. The full quote is something like "You're not allowed free speech in the memorial of Thomas Jefferson, the champion of free speech". I doubt a cop arresting people would make snarky comments about his own actions.

^Exactly, and if you listen to the video, the voice that says that goads the cops the whole time. I think it's the fellow behind the camera, not the one in front of it.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.

This makes me want to get together a bunch of college students and go to different public places to do various things that ARE allowed, just to demonstrate how much freedom we do have in the US.

<><

What I meant is that people should be allowed to raise legal challenges to laws without having to go through the trouble of getting in trouble with a cop and managing to get convicted by the lower court so they can appeal to the State Supreme Court or the SCOTUS.

The procedures to do it as they stand, they create unneccessary bad blood: They get lots of cops fired and lots of activists beaten. ______________________________________________________________________________________

But the bad blood doesn't come from the current system; it comes from activists who feel that they have to be extreme and rude about violating the law that they feel is unjust. Look at the OP's news bit: the police were reacting to the protesters' behavior and matched it with overwhelming force, the way they are generally trained. These types of activists tend to feel that they need to get the media involved in their dispute or they'll have to power in the system.

Then again, they're trying to change the law through the courts rather than through the legislature, which is a bit like trying to use a screwdriver to open a lock; it will work, but not as effectively as a key.

edited 30th May '11 1:55:16 PM by brownmouse

Actually it looked like they'd been dealing with the protesters for some time.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.

You're supposed to be able to strike down vague/irrational/unconstitutional laws through the court system.

If legislatures pass that kinda laws, the courts' job is to strike them down. That's why court challenges exist, and they should be made easier.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Yes, of course, you can strike down laws through the courts; that is not the only way to do it. A person or group can lobby the legislature to change laws that they disagree with. It takes longer and requires more persistence than getting arrested and having the courts decide on the case. But, guess what? You don't have to get arrested or drawn into a confrontation with the police. Isn't that what you were asking for?

Edit: oh, because it's such a good idea to make any sort of litigation easier....

edited 30th May '11 2:49:42 PM by brownmouse

Sure thing, Heathen, but you know there are a variety of ways to do this sort of stuff without making someone else the victim while you're at it, right?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

You know what, I oft hear police misconduct as a cited example of proof of heavy modern "white privelege".

But you know what? It just seems like cops are jerks to everybody. Maybe moreso minorities, like gays and ethnic minorities(remember that gay bar raid?).

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

What about gay, African American, Hispanic, and Asian cops? You're not about to tell the force doesn't contain any.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Cops cant afford to be nice to everyone, since everyone treats them like trash anyway.

If most of the people I had to work with either hated my guts, or tried to kill me, I'd be bitter too.

edited 30th May '11 4:10:36 PM by Thorn14

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]