Atheist student harassed for asking school obey state laws.

I'd rather there not be a speech at all. It really doesn't do any good. Then again, most ceremonies are composed of suck and fail anyway.

Fight smart, not fair.

Like I said earlier this kid could be pagan, jewish, Muslim, christian or atheist and I'd be just as pissed at whats happening to him.

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Why would you see it as "take that"?

People were bringing religion into a place where it shouldn't have gone and they got called out on it.

they were breaking the law!

Well if you think equality is garbage, then that speaks bad of you. But don't assume that of anybody else! And for the record, yes, I do think Sikhs etc. should get no special exceptions, either.

No. They made prayer a part of an official event. At such an event they acted as agents of the state, NOT as private persons. Freedom of speech simply doesn't apply here.

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Barkey: Couldn't you see it as the exact opposite though, for the same reasons? The religious people being just as err...whiny?

edited 20th May '11 2:52:07 AM by MrAHR

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And forcing an atheist to pray in a ceremony he has to attend, or risk being ostracized, isn't a Take That! against atheists?

Why is there a Double Standard where being forced (whether in rules or social pressure) to participate in religion is A-OK and non-Christians are expected to suck it up, but simply desiring to not have religion shoved in your face in situations that aren't supposed to be religious is a horrible affront to Christians who don't have to just suck up having to spend a few moments of the day not engaging in religious rituals (or simply praying quietly and privately)?

edited 20th May '11 2:53:12 AM by Jeysie

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Okay, know how at the Olympics when a particular country wins and its anthem gets played? Everyone is supposed to stand up as a sign of respect regardless of the country. The same goes here. Now, if you want to complain about how the school rejected allowing an atheist speaker to talk at the ceremony, then yeah, you've got a point. Alas, I didn't read that happening here and the majority of the students and families are Christian and so you make a ceremony that's appealing to your base. Laws are not the end all solution to everything, keep in mind, we've had some very poorly thought out laws in the past.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Then you go and change the law. Until you change it though, you obey it.

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Ah yes, but people had it your ways plenty of times as well. "Oh the laws says the womenfolk or the niggers are equal, but hey, we know what is really meant, right? Seperate but 'equal', eh? We know how to interpretate that!*wink wink*" If they want to have religious superiority they can try to enshrine that in law - but of course that would get stricken down by the Surpeme Court and rightfully so.

Unjust laws need not be followed. But that's not the case here. That's ignoring laws for the sake of "that's how things have always been done".

Err, no. Besides, the olympics is a competition among countries. So anthems have their place there. Religious parts have absolutely NO place is a non-religious event!

edited 20th May '11 3:03:50 AM by Octo

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I honestly don't see why not. The vast majority of students are Christian, and this is a very important event in their lives. But no, apparently they can't say a short prayer because it would make a couple people mildly uncomfortable.

Belief or disbelief rests with you.

They have every right to pray if they do so wish.

They just can't be lead into it by the school.

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The vast majority of students is also heterosexual, yet still an orgy at the event would be inappropriate! As said, they can live their religion in the privacy of their home, or at private gatherings (like at, you know, church). NOT at official, public events.

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So, we should cater to the Majority while ignoring the rights of the minorty?

The right to not get religion shoved in your face still exists.

Can the speaker the school invites lead them in it?

A short prayer is not having religion shoved in your face.

edited 20th May '11 3:11:44 AM by petrie911

Belief or disbelief rests with you.

Oh that's just hairsplitting and trying to get around laws while violating their spirit!

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No.

edited 20th May '11 3:10:41 AM by EnglishIvy

You aren't forced to pray. You can't force someone to pray. I usually just bow my head a little as an act of respect while they do their thing, and think about the weather or some shit.

That is a valid point that the Christians being pissed is the same, but on the other hand I guess I just hate the principle of an isolated minority of people ruining something for the majority who were happy with how things were planned.

So yeah, I'll just leave it at that. Legally, they were in the wrong. Me, personally? I don't think it's such a big deal if people who are religious wish to indulge in a quick prayer at an important ceremony while people who are not are respectful for a few moments.

edited 20th May '11 3:13:51 AM by Barkey

I wasn't forced to pray when I went to church with my cousins. Still felt creepy as shit.

But then again, I find most religion creepy in public, because I see it as a private matter.

In the end, doesn't matter whether it's creepy or enlightening or pure unfiltered goodness. The point is, it's illegal.

edited 20th May '11 3:14:09 AM by MrAHR

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Ah. That's your point. That the majority has the right to trample all over the minorities.

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OK, then, could the speaker give a speech that in any way involved Christianity?

Belief or disbelief rests with you.

Well, if it's just mentioning it and not going in full-on praise mode, sure. Or even if he or she mentions a few positive traits in passing there might be teeth gnashing and annoyance, but oh well. But starting a prayer at an official function of a school is simply something on an entirely different level.

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I don't consider a small prayer to be "trampling", and I am not part of the majority involved here. I just hate this whole "We're special and super offended by not feeling included!"

I've never had a desire to feel included, and I never really felt excluded. I just kinda rolled my own way.

Say, in a group of 400 kids or something, if there were 3 or 4 atheists, then I don't give a terribly huge shit. Call me back when they are forcing you to go to church or getting ready to lynch you.

edited 20th May '11 3:16:51 AM by Barkey

Freedom from religion, sorry, guess I should've clarifyed that.

also, this whole "the majority was ok with it" just reeks of Unfortunate Implications

I think you are misinterpreting the intent, Barkey. Not everyone does it for that reason. I, for example, am a moralfag. Plenty of people, are moral fags. They would be against it regardless of how whiny it seemed.

Others just feel very strongly about separation of church and state, for another example.

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I guess I'm just some sort of antithesis of a moralfag then. I'm rather apathetic until it starts to affect me. Prayer doesn't do anything for me, but it doesn't make me gnash my teeth either. I just kind of zone out until it's over.

edited 20th May '11 3:18:51 AM by Barkey