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Kashie Since: Jan, 2011
#1: May 17th 2011 at 7:34:57 PM

“No other institution in American history—not even slavery—has ever been so consistently unpopular...with the American public. It was controversial from the outset, and it has remained controversial to this day.” -shamelessly stolen from wikipedia in the criticisms against corporations page.

Why is this? Even on these boards I'll see this randomly dispersed in various threads, like hurting big media is a good thing and so on, and it's nearly never disputed even in the slightest.

Now, I hate a lot of things about corporations/big business, but I can't help but feel that a lot of the hate is irrational or based on assumption(for example, I once saw someone rail against Delta for paying its CEO so much when they were losing money... he had to pick an airline that paid its CEO $1 that year...).

  • They generally get so big because they're really good at something, and that often benefits anyone dealing with them; ie Wal-Mart's logistics chain and business model allow it to offer the lowest prices, which serve the general populace by lowering cost of living

  • They employ and support millions of individuals

  • Large financial institutions often provide capital(at a cost) for small businesses to start up, facilitating the creation of even more jobs and allowing people who don't have money but have a good idea to actually try to use it. Venture capitalists also supervise and help plan infant companies

  • Large capital assets allow them to develop technologies that may otherwise not be possible to pursue

  • Ownership of corporations is public, and can serve as an investment to help fight inflation etc

  • Insurance companies and other financial institutions play a large role in stabilizing the economy

  • Unlike government services, you're not forced to buy in

There's other stuff, and some specific examples I wanted to bring up, but I don't want the first post being too long.

I'm not a libertarian by any stretch, for example feeling business should be kicked out of healthcare pretty much completely (govt should do all pharmaceutical research since it has an incentive to cure rather than treat etc.), but it seems a lot of people my age can't find a single good thing to say about corporations. Academia as well, seems to have a seething hatred of capitalism in general. Big business seems to be the default villain.

So I wanna ask... do you hate big business? and why?

edited 17th May '11 8:07:45 PM by Kashie

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#2: May 17th 2011 at 7:37:48 PM

They have more money than me!

But seriously, while big business does have ups and downs, I think it's ultimately a good thing that just needs some better regulation. Beyond that, they're far more efficient than have multiple small businesses and that's hugely important in cutting down costs and standardizing something.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#3: May 17th 2011 at 7:38:26 PM

Shell companies. And Big may not be because of being good. It may be just power and inertia.

Alichains Hyaa! from Street of Dreams Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Sinking with my ship
Hyaa!
#4: May 17th 2011 at 7:38:53 PM

Might just copy this from another post.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/75/1/18

"In 1906, one Senator noted that 15 to 30 percent 'In value of all the food products in the United States were either adulterated or misbranded.' Statistical surveys of food examinations prosecutions under state laws in 1905 indicated that in some states as much as 56 percent of the food samples examined were below standard; Most prosecutions for lapses in standards succeeded. But those figures address only those for samples of suspected foods and provide no ratio of all adulterated foods on the domestic market. Potted turkey had no turkey in it; potted chicken, no chicken; Cottonseed oil was sold as olive oil, in whole or in part. Rectified whiskey often contained little whiskey and much artificial coloring. Alcohol could be found in candy and in patent medicines. Nostrums often contained narcotic or addictive drugs such as cocaine, opium, and morphine and were not labeled as such. These medicines, such as Grandma's Secret and Nurses' and Mother's Treasures were recommended for soothing children, but often proved fatal."

Also Wal-Mart underpays their employees and have a record of harming the places they set up shop.

I guess it boils down to short sighted focus on profits regardless of what happens in the long run and who gets screwed over.

MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#5: May 17th 2011 at 7:41:55 PM

Personally, I think corporations are alright. Not utterly evil, but at the same time they do occasionally do some dodgy things. Not good, not evil, but more like a well-meaning but misguided morally ambiguous entity.

Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#6: May 17th 2011 at 7:42:51 PM

[up][up] So, we had no FDA a century ago, and therefore corporations are bad?

EDIT[up] Corporations are not entities, except in the legal sense. In the literal sense, they are abstract concepts by which people organize themselves for business purposes. Those people may be good, bad, or anything in between, at any level of the structure. Blaming the organizational form for their tresspasses or crediting it with their contributions to society makes as much sense as blaming or crediting certain hairstyles with leading to certain actions.

edited 17th May '11 7:47:03 PM by Wanderhome

OurGLORIOUSLeader Since: Dec, 1969
#7: May 17th 2011 at 7:44:38 PM

Some are good. Like Google.

Some are not. Like Royal Dutch Shell.

edited 17th May '11 7:45:48 PM by OurGLORIOUSLeader

Alichains Hyaa! from Street of Dreams Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Sinking with my ship
Hyaa!
#8: May 17th 2011 at 7:45:19 PM

It's more that when left unchecked, their very willing to some horrible things in the name of a dollar. The FDA thing was just to illustrate an example. After all, if they were being ethical, why would we have an FDA in the first place?

edited 17th May '11 7:47:30 PM by Alichains

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#9: May 17th 2011 at 7:47:00 PM

So are small businesses. What's your point?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#10: May 17th 2011 at 7:47:35 PM

In that sense, they are like a man drunk on tequila - one needs to watch them and keep them in line, otherwise they become felonious and plow their car into someone's house.

BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#11: May 17th 2011 at 7:56:56 PM

A corporation is like a tractor; it's a great thing if properly controlled, but if there's nobody in the driver's seat it can really fuck things up.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#12: May 17th 2011 at 7:59:39 PM

[1]

They exploit workers, damage the environment, practically control the government...

[2]

They are not "evil", but the institutional structures encourage quasi-psychopathic behavior.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#13: May 17th 2011 at 8:02:15 PM

Newer tractors have these things that shut down the engine if there's no weight on the seat. Probably shouldn't bother extending the analogy with that, though.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Kashie Since: Jan, 2011
#14: May 17th 2011 at 8:03:30 PM

I'm actually a bit surprised that most of you are taking such a neutral stance, I guess I'm not that different.

For the evil corporation examples though, I can't help but think part of it is just that since they're big they get attention. Like Google has a good reputation and has don't do evil as a central tenet, but they're getting negative press for their data mining stuff. The shell example is pretty hardcore though.

Edit: I guess it's the whole piracy debate that makes me think people are more hatey towards corps.

edited 17th May '11 8:06:54 PM by Kashie

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#15: May 17th 2011 at 8:06:20 PM

Hey, did you know that the Red Cross is a registered corporation? They're that big and I'm going to have problems seeing eye to eye with someone who hates their guts.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#16: May 17th 2011 at 8:07:07 PM

In a sense corporations are like any group, organization, or government. Some do good and are on the whole benevolent. Others are more neutral and do a mix of good and shady things, and others are outright fiendish.

LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#17: May 17th 2011 at 8:11:42 PM

Re: Walmart

"Wal-Mart is the biggest corporation in the world. It owns 5,100 stores worldwide and employs 1.3 million workers in the United States and 400,000 abroad, as well as millions more in the factories of its suppliers.

Many people have heard of the way that Wal-Mart steamrolls its way into every possible town, destroying local supermarkets and countless small businesses. We have also heard about Wal-Mart’s long track record of worker abuse, from forced overtime to sex discrimination to illegal child labor to relentless union busting. Wal-Mart also notoriously fails to provide health insurance to over half of its employees, who are then left to rely on themselves or taxpayers, who provide for a portion of their healthcare needs through government Medicaid.

Less well known is the fact that Wal-Mart maintains its low price level by allowing substandard labor conditions at the overseas factories producing most of its goods. The company continually demands lower prices from its suppliers, who, in turn, make more outrageous and abusive demands on their workers in order to meet Wal-Mart’s requirements.

In September 2005, the International Labor Rights Fund filed a lawsuit on behalf of Wal-Mart supplier sweatshop workers in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nicaragua and Swaziland. The workers were denied minimum wages, forced to work overtime without compensation, and were denied legally mandated health care. Other worker rights violations that have been found in foreign factories that produce goods for Wal-Mart include locked bathrooms, starvation wages, pregnancy tests, denial of access to health care, and workers being fired and blacklisted if they try to defend their rights."

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#18: May 17th 2011 at 8:15:14 PM

[up]Do you happen to have a source for that quote, or better yet for any of the claims in it?

LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#19: May 17th 2011 at 8:17:53 PM

@Wanderhome

[1]

Read the sources.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#20: May 17th 2011 at 8:18:31 PM

Eh, I prefer Meijer's over Walmart. There's at least three Meijer's closer to my house than a Walmart.

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#21: May 17th 2011 at 8:19:23 PM

I think it's ultimately a good thing that just needs some better regulation.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
CommandoDude They see me troll'n from Cauhlefohrnia Since: Jun, 2010
They see me troll'n
#22: May 17th 2011 at 8:27:53 PM

  • Oft times endanger the public with dangerous product that is low quality. And destroy the environment with lax safety standards to cut costs.
  • Treat those who work for them very, very poorly. Non unionized workers are treated like slaves in a market of scarce employment.
  • Destroy market competition by monopolizing, using shrewd and uncompetitive business tactics to drive rivals out of business.
  • Cheat good honest people from what little they have, driving up the price of commodities and luxuries alike, such as oil or diamonds.
  • Buy our politicians, control the national dialogue through corporate media and influence the elections of our representatives as well as their votes and voice.

Can you see not why so many loathe their corruption?

My other signature is a Gundam.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#23: May 17th 2011 at 8:35:12 PM

I'm okay with corporations. They're just another form of property.

Fight smart, not fair.
CommandoDude They see me troll'n from Cauhlefohrnia Since: Jun, 2010
They see me troll'n
#24: May 17th 2011 at 8:36:53 PM

Actually. They're people.

The Supreme Court said so. They have all the rights of a person.

edited 17th May '11 8:37:05 PM by CommandoDude

My other signature is a Gundam.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#25: May 17th 2011 at 8:40:39 PM

Anybody want to marry Kimberly Clarke or Chuck E. Cheese then?


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