Gender and appearance

Spinning this off from the feminism thread because I didn't want to derail it.

Having just put forward the argument that men tend to be held to higher standards than women, I was, I must admit, rather thrown when Karalora raised the issue of appearance, mainly because the idea that women were significantly disadvantaged by being held to high standards of appearance just plain didn't cross my mind.

I worry about my appearance a lot, I have to admit, but I never seriously do anything about it and thusfar I haven't met any serious repercussions as a result. To what extent is this possible for a woman? Just how much pressure is put on a woman to look attractive or "pretty" in today's society?

I would imagine it was rather great.

How evident a double standard.

Bobby: Girls have makeup, creams and who knows what else. Guys do not. Girls are supposed to tan, Guys, slightly less so.

I've seen far too many people with terrible tans to take them seriously.

Orange is not an attractive colour to be.

edited 12th May '11 2:59:26 PM by AllanAssiduity

^^ I recognise that. But to what extent is there pressure to do those things? How normal/possible is it for a woman to just say "fuck it, can't be bothered with that"?

edited 12th May '11 2:59:11 PM by BobbyG

A lot I would imagine. Considering the images of what counts for an "attractive" woman these days coupled by ads for oh so much make up and hair and body care products and lifestyles for ladies, then there's the skinniness complex, that's always an issue they have to taken into account. After all if a lady gains five pounds they're too unattractive for decent society.

In fact, I want to take a rant towards the media for a moment. There are tons of female characters who, among their list of defining characteristics is attractive. For Guys this is far less often, guys can just be average looking and have a bunch of positives, never mind the outright ugly ones like say Shrek. And weight is less of an issue too on the manly front some of the time. Basically if you shower and shave and use deodorant and dress above par every so often, you're almost golden, you just need to the social skills and charisma to back it up.

For women it's almost a demand they have to be "beautiful." After all, they're the ones doing the attracting, not the dudes; and I lost my train of thought but I did have more to say about this.

edited 12th May '11 3:00:48 PM by MousaThe14

Eww, what? Fail. Light skin owns.

Girls are pretty much demanded to become beautiful, yeah. You can notice this quite easily in fiction, too.

There's also the stereotype of how women prefer manly men anyway, and masculinity is not particularly difficult to maintain as far as exterior appearance goes unless you are the ideal of it.

edited 12th May '11 3:04:59 PM by Edmania

Prettiness certainly matters if you're trying to get laid,as guys seem to care a great deal about looks. Or perhaps rather, they seem to have a narrower opinion of what qualifies as attractive. (I mean, like I stated in the other thread, I actually usually find "unique"/quirky faces on both men and women more attractive than "traditionally attractive" ones.)

But outside of that, as long as you're clean and tidy-looking, I'm not sure it's a big deal. The typical non-stage-performance workplace usually cares more about simply looking professional, rather than looking super-hot. (Or to admittedly qualify, it's not a big deal as long as you're not very ugly/gross to look at... but then, that goes for guys as well.)

I don't think I made my question very clear. I'm aware of the double standard as demonstrated by fiction, and I'm aware that women are held to higher standards for appearance than men. What I mean is, how far does this affect a woman's day-to-day life? Is it a minor inconvenience, or a major one?

Ninja'd. Oh yes, I can see how it would matter a lot for dating. But outside of that?

I'm not sure this is true. I've never figured out an easy way to do it.

edited 12th May '11 3:08:11 PM by BobbyG

I think it's more of a case of how society believes women desire not-pretty boys.

^ Depends on how seriously they take it. For perfectionists, it will be massively annoying.

edited 12th May '11 3:08:03 PM by Edmania

The pressure on a female to be attractive is huge. There is equal pressure on males, but not on attractiveness, I'd say for us it is much more equally balanced in that we have pressures to be a provider, a protector, and be physically attractive, but not to the extent that women are expected to be physically attractive, and how it is often considered their entire basis for existing.

I have to admit I've often found that whenever I judge a female, for one reason or another, such as a friend asking me what I think of a co-worker I met for the first time who's female, the first quality that crosses my mind is her appearance. "She's cute." I say, only then to follow up with "She's really cool too, fun gal to talk to."

But I don't think I've ever had those priorities reversed in my mind unless I specifically made the effort to do so.

Judging by the twenty extra minutes my mother and sister take to get ready for the day while I'm sitting around waiting, I'll say yes.

edited 12th May '11 5:13:27 PM by MousaThe14

@Bobby G

Depends on how much Mother Nature gave you to work with, which in turn affects how much time you have to spend on "enhancements". (Well, it also depends on how much you choose to care, beyond my aforementioned just looking professional.)

It's also the case that some nerdy men aren't as judgmental about such things as the average man, which might be part of why you didn't think of it, Bobby; my reading of your character is that you're not that kind of man, or at least not very much so.

Of course, this is counterbalanced by the nerdy men who won't date nerdy women because they're not comic-book sex-bombs.

I think most of the girls around me are at least moderately attractive, which should mean that at least from my skew perspective girls don't need to worry too much about appearance. Of course, it could very well be that most of the girls around me are using excessive amounts of beauty products. (And of course, as someone who thinks Angelina Jolie has ugly lips, I'm not necessarily the best person to evaluate American standards of beauty.)

There's definitely a much heavier pressure on women. I don't know how you could say otherwise, though it really differs on where you are. It's very correlated I think with materialism and the like.

^^^

My only problem with nerdy women is that they all tend to dress weird, which is the same reason I kind of take a passive dislike to nerdy men who behave that way.

I'm a nerd, all my best friends are nerds, but I don't look like I shop at Hot Topic for my entire wardrobe. All the funny little catch phrase t-shirts just kind of yell "laaaame" to me.(Except the really good ones from t-shirt hell...)

Eh.. I'm sure plenty of Tropers dress like what I'm talking about. I'm just being honest, I hate it, and while I have a huge hard-on for nerdy girls, that just kind of immediately tosses an otherwise attractive chick into the no-go zone.

Maybe not to this degree that was used for the sake of mockery◊, but yeah.. the really weird clothes just don't work for me. Geeky and confident gal who dresses like a normal human being though? Marry me.

This◊ is awesome though.

Biggest turnoff? Don't wear those stupid studded belts, they are fucking ugly, so are the nose studs.

edited 12th May '11 3:24:34 PM by Barkey

Hot Topic is more of a goth/weeaboo place than a nerd place...

Meh, I kind of feel weeaboo and geek/nerd align in a fashion. Weeaboo is just sort of a branch of the two.

But yeah, you don't have to dress in some expensive preppy getup or anything, just some regular clothes.. Never meet enough nerdy chicks who wear normal clothes..

Then again I hide my shame by wearing O'Neil, Quicksilver, and blank t-shirts without a pattern with jeans. That's pretty much my off-duty uniform.

edited 12th May '11 3:27:44 PM by Barkey

There is a much stronger pressure on women to meet societal standards of "attractive grooming" at all times — Case in point: What Not To Wear.

For years this show and series of books (and others just like it) having been hammering that it is simply not acceptable for a woman to go out in public in anything that is the slightest bit unfashionable, no matter what the circumstances. Single mother of three with a sick toddler running out to the store for cough medicine and some soup? How dare you go in sweatpants and old sneakers with your hair in a quick ponytail. You should be ashamed of yourself. Take the time to put on a nice casual dress and some cute flats and do your hair and makeup, first, lest you offend the eyeballs of everyone who has to look at you.

I'm with AHR—the only shopping a nerd or geek would do at Hot Topic is their admittedly cool pop-culture t-shirt section. (I own a Transformers shirt I got from there. )

And I guess it depends on what you mean by "normal clothes". I mean, a good chunk of the fun of being a geek is the shirts with logos or slogans, versus being cooped up in business blouses all day at work. Doesn't mean having to look like a Rummage Sale Reject, or a grunge/punk, for that matter.

edited 12th May '11 3:29:55 PM by Jeysie

They either don't care or don't want to be like "normal" girls.

edited 12th May '11 3:31:32 PM by Erock

^^^ Wow. Put like that, that's kind of disturbing, actually.

I think it's pretty obvious that I severely underestimated the extent to which people care about this. I stand very much corrected.

edited 12th May '11 3:31:30 PM by BobbyG

If anyone was in any doubt that women suffer huge pressure to look good, look no further than this thread, which didn't even get to one page before it was derailed by guys expounding upon what sorts of women they find cutest.

I guess it's just a difference between me and lots of other geeks I suppose. I wear shirts with logos, but not the type that have obscure internet culture or video game references on them, I'd feel.. Dirty..

To be fair when I look at guys who wear that sort of stuff I equally ponder if they have no shame.

edited 12th May '11 3:37:00 PM by Barkey