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Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You've got a point. Hardcore xenophobic anti-Scottish English people could well try and use the referendum to force the issue. Won't work as their numbers are obviously too small, but wouldn't put it past people to try.
Precedent: many, many people voted no on AV because they wanted a PR option, and somehow thought their idiotic No vote would not be seen as an endorsement of FPTP.
This shit does happen unfortunately and is a real threat. Salmond needs to shut the fuck up though and let Sturgeon do the talking on independence - she can handle it in a moderate way that doesn't scare swing voters into going against him just to be on the safe side.
A procrastination in of itself
Okay seeing their names side by side has made me want to ask, exactly how many SNP politicians are named after/similarly to types of fish?
Is there a Ned Trout that we can expect to lead to the SNP in a few years?
As for the actual topic, hardcore xenophobic English people might be tiny in numbers but hardcore anti-English Scots are enough for Salmond to feel comfortable spouting his racist bullcrap, so I wouldn't say we should worry about the southern side voting exit to force a referendum.
edited 27th May '16 1:44:33 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The Scottish hard-left voting out to trigger a referendum is certainly the bigger threat, though despite their loudness they're not particularly numerous either (technically there's a "Scottish Resistance", which appears to be literally three people charging around Glasgow holding signs and placards pissing people off).
Ultimately such issues are fringe, even if they turn up in Facebook trending occasionally, and even though my own Facebook is infested with people either unironically posting or relentlessly lambasting Bella Caledonia and Wings over Scotland. Mostly the former though I think in an Enemy Mine sense rather than actually buying into the rhetoric.
I don't think Salmond needs an audience though - he's like Galloway, in that it's a bonus if people listen but not an issue if they don't, he'll just talk anyway.
edited 27th May '16 2:04:47 PM by EruditeEsotericist
After this referendum, Farage and Sturgeon need to meet up in a field somewhere and agree not to demand any more for as long as either lives. Similarly Cameron (and all his successors) must make it very clear that they will respond with a Flat No to any further requests from any party in any region.
We can't just keep floating from plebiscite to plebiscite like this - Britain's continual existential "uncertainty" and political perma-purdah can't be good for the economy or our national stability.
Unfortunately, thanks to a relative of mine being a Wings Over Scotland supporter, my Social Media feeds are overwhelmed by WOS supporters who believe they're the only valid voice of Scotland, that their opinions are the mainstream opinion and that anyone in Scotland who disagrees with them are just fringe lunatics or stupid people who have been brainwashed by the anti-Scottish media (which is all media not pro-WOS - including Scottish media that don't approve of WOS).
Because, you know, WOS aren't biased at all.
Sorry. Getting very tired of the bullshit WOS keeps inundating me with. It's right up there with the migration bullshit Brexiters are spouting and the fact that supporting Bremain means Cameron will view it as a personal endorsement of him.
And, to top it all off, the government are apparently refusing to publish reports into the environmental risks of fracking, despite being legally bound to do so, which is on top of them gagging scientists from all relevant areas that could negatively impact the kind of policy decisions they're currently making. Meanwhile, they're busy attempting to privatise the Land Registry and hoping no-one will notice (third attempt since 2010, even lawyers oppose this policy, but the government seem to be determined to try as many times as it takes to push it through).
Very tired of politics in this country right now, and to add evidence to what everyone except this government understands...
Austerity policies do more harm than good, IMF study concludes
edited 27th May '16 2:51:13 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I'm inclined to agree. I'm pro-Indy of course, albeit because of my belief in a wider federalised Europe but there's a definite Don't Shoot the Message thing about most of what they say. And a victim complex in the pro-Indy movement generally.
Yes, there is a MSM bias, but there's an MSM bias against left-wing movements generally, and moaning about it doesn't change anything. The unfortunate reality is that right wing ideas are more appealing to the money-men who keep the wheels of this world turning. No amount of idealism from the left will get rid of Murdoch, and when Walder Frey finally falls off the mortal coil, his replacements will be no better.
I'll be very supporting of another indie referendum if Brexit happens - but I want more than just about anything in the world for it not to happen. We need an emphatic Bremain victory, not that anything short of a 99% win would shut up the Brexit morons. As a continent, Bremain has to win and by a bloody landslide.
edited 27th May '16 2:50:30 PM by EruditeEsotericist
You have to bear in mind that the only thing that stopped me voting 'yes' is the fact I don't currently live in Scotland, so it's not that I'm unsympathetic to that side of the argument. It's that I'm unsympathetic to WOS's arguments.
As to why I would vote 'yes' - it's a similar reason to you. I want a federalised UK within a federal EU structure. If we can't have a federal UK structure, then I'd rather we be part of a federal EU structure anyway.
We desperately need de-centralisation of Westminster at the absolute minimum. And I mean that for England to benefit as well, not just the devolved administrations.
edited 27th May '16 3:04:11 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Oh absolutely, I believe our politics align generally, I've sympathy for the overall positions of WOS but not their specific arguments and absolutey not their utter cunt of a founder and leader. I made the mistake of making a moderate comment on their website once and was immediately condemned as a traitor - and they use such melodramatic words with no sense of Narm at all.
Much as many moderate English nationalists must desperately wish they had a real political party to support that isn't UKIP, so I wish that the social media side of the debate around Scottish nationalism weren't being hijacked so thoroughly by the extremist idiots of Wings.
Thankfully, the SNP themselves are not going to such extremes (Salmond being the massive pain in the arse exception of course, and figures he's got a photo with the leader of the "Scottish Resistance").
English decentralisation is also badly needed. The north/south divide is too extreme for one government to manage it appropriately, there needs to be more power in other areas, like the north, to manage their own affairs.
edited 27th May '16 3:19:00 PM by EruditeEsotericist
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah England needs regionalising, you can't do it evenly but I think that's a wild goose chase. Some divides are easy, East Anglia, The West Country, Greater Manchester, The Home Countries, put Yorkshire back together again.
But then you've got shit like the Midlands and the rest of the North, you can't just throw the North minus Yorkshire (and maybe Greater Manchester) into one region, nor can you make the Midlands one region, they'd be huge regions with tons of people.
I don't want to use the EU parliament regions because they're just so dull and soul killing, but I've tried Anglo Saxon kingdoms befor and it ain't easy.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Most Scottish nationalists seem too reasonable for that, cause Scotland's position in the EU is in no way guaranteed if they break off. Maybe a fringe (like that creepy ethnic nationalist group that no one wants to deal with), but no enough to make a difference.
I will say that Scotland absolutely has the right to hold another vote if England drags them out of the EU. Bit different from a neverendum.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
I don't see a Bremain landslide as really being possible - look at the polling so far. The bulk of the British have no love for the EU, and if they do vote remain it'll be through gritted teeth. Certainly we don't want a United States Of Europe, and getting people to vote for the Remain option depends on assuring them that further steps towards this definitely won't happen - the moment it looks like we're headed further in, the people will want out. There really can't be a "More EU Integration" option on this referendum any more than there could have been a "Repeal Devolution" option in 2014 - it would destroy the In campaign in an instant. Even if we do then vote In, the Scottish nationalists will only take five minutes to come up with some other wheeze, and will repeat the Indyref 2 threat with every major national decision that Britain takes from now until the sun explodes.
V
Which, incidentally, is what happened in 1974.
More then that, I don't think there's much demand for more EU integration on the continent — in fact, the trend seems to be towards a Eurosceptic, British-style of thinking about the EU.
edited 28th May '16 1:42:59 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
Please can you not refer to "Scottish nationalists" in such ways when you either are or should be only referring to the likes of Wings and extremists like Salmond? "Scottish nationalists", implies the SNP and the far, far more numerous sensible supporters, and the above quote bears no relation whatsoever to anything suggested or implied, far less outright said, by the latter.
If it wasn't an idea doomed to failure by how the system works this totally sounds like a cue to start our own single-issue Federalist party.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Dreams of Revenge
Agreed 100%. If we don't get another referendum for the next decade or two, it'll be too soon. 
I'm not so convinced of that - it would strike me as somewhat needless to leave merely because you were outvoted by everyone else. Though I stand to be corrected, I doubt that England alone could yank the rest of the UK out - it'd require at least some support from the other constituent nations. Compromise is a necessary part of any political arrangement, and in this I think it would be unhelpful for Scotland to hold a referendum on leaving the UK just because they got outvoted. Albeit I'm biased because I very firmly come down on the Unionist side of the debate.
edited 28th May '16 5:06:24 PM by Flanker66
Locking you up on radar since '09
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Leaving the EU is a massive alteration of the UK as it presently stands - it's basically a constitutional alteration, given how legally and economically integrated we've become. Scotland would be attached to a profoundly changed country, and it's fair to ask whether they'd still want to be.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Dreams of Revenge
When put that way it seems more reasonable. Thanks very much!
Locking you up on radar since '09
A procrastination in of itself
Also England can force an out, we're 83% of the UK population and the referendum is a simple majority one, not a "majority required in each of the four parts" one.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
What do the latest polls give (solely) in regards to England?
Dreams of Revenge
I stand corrected! Thanks again.
Locking you up on radar since '09
V
Migrants could die crossing Channel, ex-chief inspector warns
It comes after 20 people - including 18 Albanian migrants, two of them children - were rescued from an inflatable boat off the coast of Kent on Sunday. Two British men, aged 35 and 33, have been charged with immigration offences.
Ex-inspector John Vine said there was an "equal chance" of migrants drowning in the Channel as in the Mediterranean. The UK coastguard said it was called just before midnight on Saturday to an incident off the coastal village of Dymchurch. Those on board the boat reportedly alerted their families in Calais after their inflatable boat started taking in water.
A Home Office spokesman confirmed a woman and two children were among those on the boat. He said a second vessel - linked to the incident - was also discovered on the beach at Dymchurch.
The two Britons, Robert Stilwell, 33, from Dartford, and Mark Stribling, 35, from Farningham, appeared before Medway Magistrates Court in Kent on Monday. They were charged with conspiring to facilitate the entry of non-EU nationals, and remanded in custody to appear before Maidstone Crown Court on 27 June.
The incident comes after 17 men, thought to be Albanian migrants, were detained when a catamaran arrived at Chichester Marina in West Sussex on Tuesday, along with a 55-year-old British man wanted on suspicion of murder in Spain.
The Briton, who was the subject of a European Arrest Warrant, was detained on suspicion of facilitating illegal immigration and the 17 men were held on suspicion of entering the UK illegally. Also last month, two Iranian men were found floating in a dinghy in the Channel.
Conservative party turmoil escalates with open call for Cameron to quit
The attacks came from Andrew Bridgen and Nadine Dorries – both Brexiters, and longstanding, publicity-hungry opponents of the prime minister – and their claim that even winning the EU referendum won’t stop Cameron facing a leadership challenge in the summer was dismissed by fellow Tories.
But their comments coincided with the ministers in charge of the leave campaign launching some of their strongest personal attacks yet on Cameron, prompting Labour’s Alan Johnson to say that the Tory infighting was getting “very ugly indeed”.
Bridgen told the BBC’s 5 Live that Cameron had been making “outrageous” claims in his bid to persuade voters to back remain and that, as a consequence, he had effectively lost his parliamentary majority.
“The party is fairly fractured, straight down the middle and I don’t know which character could possibly pull it back together going forward for an effective government. I honestly think we probably need to go for a general election before Christmas and get a new mandate from the people,” he said.
Bridgen said at least 50 Tory M Ps – the number needed to call a confidence vote – felt the same way about Cameron and that a vote on the prime minister’s future was “probably highly likely” after the referendum.
Dorries told ITV’s Peston on Sunday she had already submitted her letter to the chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 committee expressing no confidence in the prime minister.
“[Cameron] has lied profoundly, and I think that is actually really at the heart of why Conservative M Ps have been so angered. To say that Turkey is not going to join the European Union as far as 30 years is a lie.”
A leadership contest would only take place if Cameron lost a confidence vote, which would be unlikely if the remain campaign wins the referendum. But a sizeable vote against Cameron in a confidence ballot could still prove fatal to his premiership, forcing him to accelerate plans for his departure.
Dorries said that if remain won 60/40, Cameron would probably survive. “If remain win by a narrow majority, or if leave win, he’s toast within days,” she said.
Even if, as many Tories expect, a confidence vote does not materialise, the Bridgen/Dorries comments are a reminder of how maverick, hardline Eurosceptics were able to play havoc with John Major’s government in the 1990s because he had such a small majority. Cameron’s working majority is just 16.
The Conservative MP Steve Baker said Bridgen “[had] a point” about how unsympathetic backbenchers were towards Cameron’s EU stance. Baker claimed only about 30 were very strongly committed to remain – and he said he thought there could be “a problem” for the prime minister after 23 June.
But more senior figures in Tory Brexit camp backed Cameron and insisted a confidence vote would not happen because the rebels would not get enough support.
“I don’t think there are 50 colleagues gunning for the prime minister,” said Chris Grayling, the justice secretary. “I can assure you that those people who fought to win their seats 12 months ago are definitely not gunning for a general election by Christmas.”
Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 committee, said Bridgen’s intervention was “unfortunate” and that the party had to pull together after the referendum.
Liam Fox, the former defence secretary, said the party would need “a period of stability” after the referendum and that it would be best for Cameron to stay as prime minister. Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary, also said he was not in favour of replacing Cameron.
In a particularly personal attack that seemed clearly aimed at Cameron and the chancellor, George Osborne, Priti Patel, the employment minister, used an article in the Sunday Telegraph to say it was “shameful” that wealthy remain campaigners did not realise how much harm mass immigration was doing to the poor.
“If you have private wealth or if you work for Goldman Sachs you’ll be fine. But when public services are under pressure, it is those people who do not have the luxury of being able to afford the alternatives who are most vulnerable,” she wrote.
“It’s shameful that those leading the pro-EU campaign fail to care for those who do not have their advantages.”
Patel’s article coincided with Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London, and Michael Gove, the justice secretary, writing an open letter to Cameron asking him to accept that it would be impossible for him to achieve his manifesto promise of getting net migration below 100,000 if the UK stayed in the EU. The letter, also signed by Labour’s Gisela Stuart, said failure to keep this promise “is corrosive of public trust”.
edited 30th May '16 5:14:26 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
Nadine Dorries is a piece of work. She's one of the expenses abuse MPs. She thinks people who are claiming benefits who use social media too much should be stripped of their benefits (she came up with an arbitrary number of Tweets to define "too much"). She's the one who keeps pushing for abortion to made illegal (she keeps hijacking scientific evidence with unscientific nonsense, with the attitude that, because she used to be a nurse, she's the only person in the world who has the right to speak about the subject - she doesn't understand science at all, and given that she claims she used to be a nurse, her medical knowledge is pretty shocking, too; she's thinks sex ed should be about abstinence). Since she keeps losing the scientific arguments about abortion, she keeps trying to make abortion and family planning services illegal instead.
When women pushed for an end to workplace discrimination against those who choose not to wear heels and dress codes that insist on women wearing heels, she started campaigning against what she kept insisting was a "proposed ban" - it wasn't. It was a health report advising the retail sector to permit women to wear flat shoes because of the health impact of long hours in heels.
Her attitude whenever she's opposed by other MPs is to accuse them of mental instability, which hasn't earned her any handshakes from mental health campaigners either.
She's the last person who should be complaining about David Cameron. Not surprised to see her as a Brexit supporter though. She's dead wrong to be claiming that Cameron's lying about Bremain though - he has exaggerated, that's for sure, but he's actually done an amazingly minimal amount of lying about the EU given his track record, and certainly compared to the Brexit supporters.
While the current situation with Turkey does make it unlikely they'll be EU members within 30 years, it is stupid to say that definitely won't be the case. Turkey is demanding membership by 2023, which is what the Brexit supporters keep latching onto, but given that Turkey have only managed to close a single chapter (out of 33) in the past 10 years, and at least 8 are frozen because they refuse to negotiate over Cyprus or their domestic terrorism and discrimination laws, membership isn't looking particularly likely right now at all - the EU certainly doesn't see their demand of 2023 as in any way feasible.
edited 30th May '16 7:02:27 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Dorries is also a notorious publicity hound - her mainstream notoriety comes from having actually quit the Tory party to go on Im A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here (well, suspended from it I think - it was a whole big mess). She has no regard for her constituents, no grasp on logic, common sense or real facts.
She's a fucking idiot and an obnoxious one at that.
Just the sort of politician Brexit attracts by way of support, it's no wonder she supports their cause.
edited 30th May '16 8:05:23 AM by EruditeEsotericist
@ Deadbeat:
That applies to both England and Scotland.
edited 27th May '16 8:37:11 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On