What is equality of opportunity?

In a discussion of equality, Black Humor said:

What would equality of opportunity look like in concrete terms? If most progressives demand equality of opportunity in society and are content with great inequality of outcome, in what sort of society would you recognize your quest as won and be conservative?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

When the luck of birth doesn't determine success. That's the ideal anyway.

[1]

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

Oy Gavalt, that writer either needs to start campainging properly or try to realise that people listen to you a lot more if you aren't insulting them.

"Oy Gavalt, that writer either needs to start campainging properly or try to realise that people listen to you a lot more if you aren't insulting them."

Well it is his blog, and it's intended for a radical audience. Anyway, he wasn't so much being insulting as he was being dramatic. I am not a reader, just stumbled on this entry and liked it.

"And if he was using hyperbole I can't say I noticed."

No, he wasn't. He was using dramatic language. I happen to prefer it, but that's me.

edited 15th Apr '11 3:13:33 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

I don't care WHO you are writing for, you should make what you say reasonably appealing to all, especially if they are a majority of people who might hold similar ideas.

And if he was using hyperbole I can't say I noticed.

My definition of equality of opportunity: An environment where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed based on their own merits. In an environment of equal opportunity, individuals will succeed or fail based on their own skills, abilities and intelligence. Race/class/gender/etc. will be irrelevant.

"based on their own merits"

In practice, this might be fine. But your value as capital should not be considered your value as a person.

edited 15th Apr '11 3:19:24 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

Well people tend to get somewhat nervous when you talk about measuring the soul.

When did I say that a person's value was based on their capital? Your value as a person has nothing to do with your earning potential.

edited 15th Apr '11 3:56:32 PM by LadyMomus

Equality of opportunity means that your race, gender, class, ethnicity, religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation, etc. will not affect your access to quality education or your chances of getting a job you want. Your interests, abilities, and hard work are the only things that determine your path in life and your success in that path.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

"When did I say that a person's value was based on their capitol?"

You used the word merit. [1]

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

"The quality of being particularly good or worthy, esp. so as to deserve praise or reward"

Don't see how capital is anywhere in that.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

I meant merits as in "the value of their skills and abilities", not the value of the individual. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

"I apologize if that wasn't clear."

Well, OK then. Sorry. What about using reprogenetics to eliminate innate disadvantages?

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

What's melodramatic about my entry? I'm really interested in hearing this. I didn't think my writing was melodramatic at all.

As I wrote, I think "equality of opportunity" is a capitalist conceit, basically a way to keep minorities and the disenfranchised placated by giving them a chance to exploit others. Personally, I'm not interested in it at all. But YMMV.

edited 15th Apr '11 5:20:39 PM by Franc28

Essentially, you're alienating everyone who is less extreme than you, and you can't get more extreme than anarcho-communism.

If you chase away everyone who doesn't agree with you exactly, the only one who agrees with you will be you.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Where did you get the idea I was a communist? I'm a libertarian socialist. Communists are more extreme than I am (although there are a couple of communist blogs that I like, I don't tend to like them very much). For one thing, I support the use of currency (egalitarian labor notes), while communists don't.

edited 15th Apr '11 5:26:19 PM by Franc28

Ah. That's still not much difference though.

EDIT: So then, in what sense of socialist? It can mean a pretty wide range of things.

edited 15th Apr '11 5:31:20 PM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

"Essentially, you're alienating everyone who is less extreme than you, and you can't get more extreme than anarcho-communism.

If you chase away everyone who doesn't agree with you exactly, the only one who agrees with you will be you."

I think he's a "left mutualist" (was at least), but they are pretty close. I don't know about that though, what is anarchist criticism of 'the system' if it's "restrained"? Would be weird if they if they tried to ally with moderate liberals, that's like a progressive not being critical of extremist fundamentalism.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

Exactly. To add to this, such things should not affect how one is treated by the law and which rights and responsibilities one holds. These should depend only on one's own performance. Basically, a meritocracy with each position possibly attainable by everyone (not automatically closed on a basis of gender, class and so on) and with the same standard applicable to everyone to measure qualification.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Exactly. But I would also emphasize that everyone should have easy access to quality education for an even starting point, because in our world, if you aren't educated, it doesn't matter how smart you are or how hard you're willing to work; there will always be a rather low upper limit to what you can accomplish.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

How I define equality of opportunity is that our natural differences are allowed exactly as much weight for determining what we're allowed to do as they have in determining what we're capable of doing. For instance, I do not believe that there should be as many women as men working in jobs that require significant upper-body strength—that's equality of outcome, not opportunity. However, if a given women has enough upper-body strength to compete with men, she should be given a chance.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

I think that "natural differences" can violate the ideal of "equality of opportunity".

A person with, say, Down syndrome will have less opportunities than most people, and no, it is not fair in the least. The problem is that we do not know of a way to remedy this, for now; and hence, all that we can do is try to allow him to live a comfortable life, and keep researching for some kind of cure.

edited 15th Apr '11 9:40:45 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Equal does not mean identical!

Frankly, I think all this overblown rhetoric is why Rottweiler is so afraid of liberals—he's taking them at their word, rather than taking what they turn out to mean when forced into a corner, which generally turns out to be the same as what I'm saying.

edited 15th Apr '11 9:43:55 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful