Men in Black 3

I think it's something to do with whether not shooting the aliens on the firing range was the right answer or if J got through that test just by bullshitting. I know I've seen that debate somewhere online.

I think K just overruled the tests, cause he's cool like that.

I don't know who actually implimented the "No Secret Test of Character" ban, but I think the example is kind of stretching it. It was pretty clear that the recruitment tests were meant to be done straight, as otherwise all of the MIB staff would be people similar to Jay. The fact Jay demonstrated the "Think outside the box" mentality and a degree of Hyper-Awareness was a nice bonus but really can't be expected of every potential recruit; in fact most people at MIB seem to be more of the By-the-Book Cop like the other recruits were. Zed mentioned he didn't like his authority issues but Kay brought up how Jay was persistant enough to run down that alien as a regular cop. I think THAT was moreso the reason Jay was brought on.

On a related note, that alien seemed to be clearly referencing on how the Bug was coming to Earth and it was his fault, but they never really explained why or how he fit into the overall narrative. Did he let a spy get away or something?

edited 15th Dec '11 12:57:02 AM by KJMackley

J capping the cardboard little girl in the head seems to be Edgar foreshadowing. An alien in human skin.

There was also the information form test, as well. It's a little more obvious that the second one was a veiled test given that the first one is evidently one as well - if it was just the firing range test maybe I would understand the "it's not a secret test of character" spiel, but with both of them the storytelling is clearly telling us something about J, the MIB and it's mysterious tests, especially given that the marines failed where J succeeded, and there's nothing to say that the MIB wouldn't be taking more than one recruit if they could.

It was clear to me that for all the tests the idea was that the marines failed because they could only think in terms of the limited parameters they were given and thus would act as they were ordered to act, while J could think outside the box.

edited 15th Dec '11 3:54:28 PM by KnownUnknown

It very well might have been, but the thing is that a secret test of character is specifically "I am going to make you a morally controversial offer, how you respond to it is the secret test." It isn't "We are evaluating you on more than just what we tell you the test is about."

I'm fairly sure that, at least in use, the trope is less specific than you think it is.

There is always tropes as they are defined and tropes as they are used. The Secret Test of Character as defined is what I said, it's about presenting a supposedly real moral dilemma to someone and seeing how they react to it. How it is used often ends up just trying to teach that person a lesson about a possibly real scenario and everything in between. It even says right in the description that if it isn't a moral dilemma then it is a Secret Test, Hidden Purpose Test or False Crucible.

Though certainly in the live fire exercise the other recruits just went in guns first, firing at anything that looked weird. Actually shooting "little Tiffany" may not have been the intended goal, but Jay was very clearly paying attention to the scenario and fired just one shot once he felt he had a fair assessment. The reason why people may be arguing about it is because the movie doesn't go on to explain to Jay what the purposes of the tests really were, only that Jay ended up being chosen (possibly in spite of how he performed those tests).

edited 15th Dec '11 11:31:32 PM by KJMackley

How they are used, in writing, in story, and in parlance, is what truly defines what the trope is, and the fact of the matter is our descriptions are often lacking. The fact that our tropes are often used in a broader sense than our descriptions dictate them says a great deal, I believe.

Secret Test of Character is a trope that has gotten a long use in folklore, in literature, and, finally, in film. Trust me when i say our definition is a fairly narrow interpretation of a widely reaching trope (that first paragraph describes far to specific a situation for the concept), and your interpretation of it is narrower still.

It's also worth noting that what you say it is is, in the way you put it, actually a version of what you say it isn't, if I'm interpreting your words correctly. You could even be describing the exact same situation with both definitions, quite easily in fact. All it would require is that the situation of the first is told to the character as a test of some sort, and it immediately becomes the second situation as well.

The best definition I can give for the trope while factoring in the description is this: "a challenge or task a character is given that, by parameters, apparently has one purpose but in truth is a veiled test for a greater quality the character may or may not have. Usually, but always, this is related to morality."

edited 15th Dec '11 11:57:46 PM by KnownUnknown

Secret Test of Character is popular because it sounds more dramatic than Secret Test or Hidden Purpose Test, that's all. The point of a test of character is that it presents the person with a character-defining moral choice. Otherwise it's like trying to determine personal integrity by how they make a sandwich. But that's a discussion for trope repair.

No matter how we look at it, the guys were just shooting at cardboard cutouts.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you were saying. When I said "how the trope is used" I meant how the trope is interpreted by editors of this wiki and not how the trope is used in media.

edited 16th Dec '11 3:36:30 PM by KJMackley

The paperwork dilemma was part of the test, too.

New trailer. It even hangs a Lampshade on my earlier question regarding Kay's age.

edited 5th Mar '12 8:38:52 AM by RLNice

Brolin....... is an IMPECCABLE Tommy Lee Jones!

I am so over Will Smith.

Yes, have to concede that.

I've heard tell that Jack Jeebs won't be in this one because Tony Shalhoub is a big star now with Monk or something like that.

Too bad, but I'm kind of hoping he was willing to do a cameo or something that nobody told us about.

The early word on this seems to be that it's between the first and second in terms of quality.

I'm disappointed to hear that in this, Zed's dead.

But the first one was really good, and the second one was really bad, so this one could go anywhere.

I think I must be the only one who's really looking forward to this in all seriousness. I loved both movies, I'm a big fan of Will Smith and the premise of this one just looks genuinely fun to me.

And every trailer I've seen just seems to get better and better to me, so yeah I'm definitely going to check it as soon as it hits theaters...

Just saw it at the midnight release.

... It was actually pretty good.

For reals?

From what I've been reading is that the story is a bit nonsensical but it clearly is not trying to repeat the pattern of the first movie. Rotten Tomatoes has it fresh at 68%, in comparison the first movie was 90% and the second movie was 38%. The most consistent praise is Brolim channeling Tommy Lee Jones flawlessly and that the movie never forgets to have fun.

I've just watched the film. It was perfect. I laughed from beginning to end, save for some dramatic moments in the last segment. It was an extremely funny movie. Brolin's performance was beautiful. That guy needs to play Batman once Christian Bale is done. Will Smith was top-notch. An amazing thing with the trailer is, unlike in most comedies, they took only the crappiest gags, which, out of context, just look silly.

What will the new song be?

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THESE POSITIVE REACTIONS. I GUESS I'LL NEED TO SEE IT NOW.

Really enjoyed this, though the first act was a little shaky(it also has other issues that I'm sure I'll remember).

You know, I was surprised. I found this to be in the same level as 1. Sure, it has some flaws here and there, but I think the plot is really great, there's fantastic character development, and it's funny. Plus, the plot twists are actual plot twists.