The World's Largest Fighter Aircraft Competition

That would apply to the Gripen too though since it uses American parts.

A note on the future Indian carriers: in the time-frame that we're talking about, India will probably have two STOBAR carriers (Vikrant and Vikramaditya), plus potentially a CATOBAR in the works. From what I've heard they're sticking with the MiG-29K and the HAL Tejas for the STOBAR carriers, and probably will use the same platforms from their CATOBAR carriers as well. Unless their new medium-fighter has enough of a performance jump over the -29K to justify the expense, it wouldn't be worth it to buy navalized versions of the Euro, Rafale, or Gripen. (Considering that the Super Hornet and the MiG-29K are in the same weight class, I don't see them springing for F-18s for their carriers.)

Plus: if the Indians are planning on navalizing this new platform, it won't have to be STOBAR capable; it'll have to be catapult-capable. The problem with ski-jump carriers is that, so far, their air wings are limited to air defense at a pretty modest range. The Su-33 can't take off from Kuznetsov with anything close to its full warload. No information on the MiG-29K or the Tejas, although they might be better in this regard since they're considerably newer. On the other hand, once they get their catapult carriers into service, they can think more offensively; the theoretical navalized medium fighter would probably fly off those decks.

Well, if we open it up to American equipment, then it has to be the F-22. The F-16 is right out and the F-18 doesnt meet their requirements.

That will not happen. The F-22 is Banned For Export. Only the F-35 is currently available for Export, due to the technologies contained within the F-22.

And I'm sure the Americans don't want information/technology from the F-22 ending up in the joint Russian/Indian FGFA project.

edited 6th Apr '11 7:12:36 AM by Greenmantle

Oops, my bad. I actually made two mistakes: I meant to say F-35, which I thought was in the running. It isn't. Well then, the Americans are right out after all. We aren't going to win this thing. The Typhoon is too expensive, and the Rafael doesn't meet their technical requirements. That leaves the Migs, unless the Russians are considered too unreliable. That would leave the Gripen.

The Americans have been inviting the Indians to F-35 demonstrations according to one of the links posted earlier. In lieu of falling foreign demand for the F-35, this might be seen as a coup for Lockheed, who are certainly screwed with the F-16 for a variety of reasons. Timing for it is an issue though. By the time the Indians get it, they'll be well on their way to having superior aircraft just finishing the design phase and being put into production.

Exactly.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:46:36 AM by FFShinra

Isn't this supposed to be a stopgap purchase until they start producing their own fighters domestically? The F-35 might be too much plane for them. It's not rolling out for a few years, and it's bloody expensive, even if it is pretty awesome.

If it's really just going to be a stopgap, then I don't see the Euro making it through. It's even better than the F-35, after all.

Well the F-35 isn't even in the competition and, upon further reading, the Indians don't want it anyway for reasons of price and the notoriously unreliable nature of tech transfer from the US. Indians are big on that one...

I agree about the Eurofighter.

So then here's a question. If the competition goes on much longer (its already been extended a year from last spring) and it becomes a question of choosing top four, which gets cut based on what India needs and wants?

According to this article (linked from The Other Wiki here), the remaining contestants are...

...

EDIT: Another article — basically, no decision as yet. And additionally, it appears the MRCA Fighter is due for a 30-year operational career.

edited 6th Apr '11 11:41:17 AM by Greenmantle

If they choose the Eurofighter, they'll have something that they can use for a long time alongside their own design when eventually they get that produced.

If I were India and had to choose between the Eurofighter and the Rafale, I'd go with the former.

Using the Euro as an air superiority fighter and their indigenous design for general purpose? I can see that happening, but I thought the Indian design was intended to match the Eurofighter as an air superiority fighter. They might end going with it anyway, but the added costs would mean fewer indigenous fighters.

Frankly, I don't see why they would need an indigenous design if they're gonna be accepted as de facto partners in the Eurofighter concern.

Of course, they didn't know this was gonna happen when they started developing their own plane and now that they're just about finished, there's not much point stopping anymore. Oh, well...

I still say the Gripen makes the most sense, given everything (sorry Best, know how you feel about 'dem Sweeds).

What of the Gripen's American parts? Part of the hesitancy with the American models being offered is that they could smite India at any time should the subcontinent heat up again.

Well, I gotta say that the idea the US would refuse parts to Sweden in order to deny them to India in order to mess with Russia is a bit convoluted even to me.

Oh I agree, personally. But that's the reasoning being bandied about.

Anyway, the four I think would make it to the next round are the Rafale, F-18, Mig-35, and Gripen. F-16 goes cuz the Pakistanis have them, and the Eurofighter goes cuz its far too expensive when the Rafale can do basically the same thing for less.

The US could order the Swedes not to give any more tech support to India. They've certainly fucked with the Swedes before; that's the reason the Viggen never got any exports even though the Draken got sold all over the place.

We Finns have always hated Swedes, except when either country needs a friend, in which case we'll always help each other out.

The only negative feelings I have towards Swedes that aren't just me joking are jealousy of their national football team (and the fact that like the rest of Europe, football is the biggest sport in Sweden) and horror of their national ice hockey team which, to be absolutely honest, actually is better than us and thus they don't always win us by pure luck, though they really are the most lucky team in the world, too.

IIRC, that was because we thought that the Viggen (the best plane of it's time by the way) would interfere with sales of the F-4 Phantom, right? But our F-35 isn't ready yet, and the F-16 is on it's way out, so the Gripen doesn't actually compete with us right now (as the Indian RFP indicates). Why are they using US parts anyway? Seems like a dumb decision, given the history.

@Best: Hm, sounds like Michigan's attitude toward Ohio or Indiana, then (rotten motherless cheats!).

The standard engine on the normal Gripen is a single licence-built General Electric F404, while that of the Gripen NG is a single General Electric F414.

As well, US Missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-9 Sidewinder and munitions like the GBU-12 Paveway II are also supported for use .

Both of the engines and use of American munitions — I am almost certain — require approval from the US Congress before they can be sold to an individual country (even Britain and Canada require permission from Congress first).

edited 7th Apr '11 10:20:52 AM by Greenmantle

Some updates...it seems likely that the Indian government is gonna extend it AGAIN to the tune of another billion dollars. There are fears that this could become another Bofors scandal.

Also, the IAF has said essentially that money is no object with regards to the fighters.

^

And India has seen how America treats Pakistan when it comes to weapons and the like.

Question for those who'd know: How big of a deal is range in the age of carriers and the fact that the likely enemies are right on their border (and in the case of Pakistan, are likely easily traversable due to its size)?

edited 8th Apr '11 7:10:16 PM by FFShinra

^ A very big deal still. Despite a fleet of almost a dozen carriers, long range fighters are still needed to protect the skies of the US a very large country. (In both sense of the meanings)

India is not exactly small either geographically so the puny shit that can only reach a couple hundred kilometers is a bad idea.

Fair enough, but wouldn't all that fighter power be based near the border to make maximum advantage? Wouldn't that make up for lack of range? (totally asking, I haven't the slightest...)

edited 8th Apr '11 9:43:11 PM by FFShinra

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/india-scraps-gripen-from-its-jet-shortlist/articleshow/8104206.cms

Saab is apparently announcing that they're out of the competition. There are also some rumors that both American bids are out too, but there hasn't been any confirmation. Those same rumors figure the Eurofighter and Dassault bids to have front-runner status and that they will make the cut for the shortlist. No info on the Mi G.

Thoughts?