Is it even worth starting threads related to abortion at all?

Beholderess you live in russia, where there are more abortions than births. Why have a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

hashtagsarestupid

This is the thread were we suppose to discuss alternative way of discussion abortions, right? because it's remind me of the time I sort of won an abortion discussion by ignoring the whole "when does life begin" issue and claimed instead that a ban on abortions would no longer work in this day and age because the internet would immediately provide any woman who would want to stop an unwanted pregnancy with a safe way to get instructions on how to induce a miscarriage (which is easier than most people realize).

we debated about whether or not there would be a way to distinguish between a natural miscarriage and an induced one and than we move on into a discussion of whether the state should make laws it has no way of enforcing (like making suicide illegal) or it should just recognize it's own limits and accept that some things can't be changed by legislation.

It was one of the most interesting and civilized abortion discussion I participated in

Or just recognize the fact that an unborn fetus is worth less and is much much easier to replace than a fully grown woman?

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Nice.

That's nothing new. We all know banning abortion would only increase the rate of back alley/DIY abortions along with the dangers to the women who have them. Not every one sees that outcome as a bad thing.

edited 2nd Apr '11 4:42:13 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

Are you speaking for yourself here?

Hodor

I think everybody except the most vehement anti-sex crusaders would agree that contraception is much better than abortion, so I'm pretty sure education is a solution that everyone would support.

Artificial wombs would be good, but I can't see us having the technology for them for a long time yet, and pro-choice people would still complain.

Be not afraid...

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person.

hashtagsarestupid

I didn't know that!

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Hmm, didn't now that that was his viewpoint.

In any event though, that does kind of bring me to something alluded to earlier- I'm kind of curious what the penalties pro-life people would advocate for women and doctors who perform abortions. Because in a sense, if it's anything less than death or life imprisonment, it's hard to take the claim to fetal personhood seriously, even if I'd think better of someone who didn't advocate those punishments.

edited 2nd Apr '11 4:58:43 PM by Jordan

Hodor

Not necessarily.

Death or life imprisonment are usually put forward as penalties for first degree murder.

well... punishment is not just about the value of the victim but the intent of the accused.

edited 2nd Apr '11 5:14:29 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

This is the greatest meta-thread ever.

But yeah, I think that abortion is a touchy topic. Far too often people go down lines of argument that have no clear resolution. (i.e., "Is it a human/person/separate being or not?") People who are arguing for or against abortion must stay away from emotional arguments and try to put forward more logical or financial arguments for their positions. Because unfortunately, even though many opinions are fueled by emotions, nothing speaks louder than cold hard cash... err, I mean facts.

Would you kindly click my dragons?

Uh, no. Clinical depression can lead people to do things like attempt suicide (just like the woman in the OP's article), which a person fully capable of reasoning would likely not do, because they would be able to see other options. It's obvious that such a person's ability to reason has been impaired by their mental state.

I'll give you five bucks to agree with me?

edited 2nd Apr '11 6:08:43 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Well, we still consider people who are drunk to be responsible for their own actions. Not a perfect similarity, as people usually choose to get drunk whereas clinically depressed people don't.

But we already accept that just having mind-altering chemicals swimming about in your brain doesn't mean you lose control over your actions.

edited 2nd Apr '11 6:13:17 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

Because of that imperfection in similarity, your argument is invalid. The fact that the drunk person chose to get drunk is specifically why we consider them responsible for their actions. The clinically depressed person did not choose to become clinically depressed, therefore they should not be punished if the mental disorder leads them to do something illegal, they should be helped out of the mental disorder.

It's not so much about whether a person "deserves" to be punished for their actions (which is what the question of their agency in the matter is really about) as whether good results will come about from punishing them. What is expected to be accomplished by prosecuting this woman? Teaching her a lesson? Deterring other suicidally depressed pregnant women from attempting suicide? Somehow, I don't think the threat of punishment is likely to deter anyone who is trying to die. Pregnant or not.

edited 2nd Apr '11 6:22:20 PM by Karalora

Well, I certainly agree that clinically depressed people shouldn't be punished for trying to commit suicide. That's not going to help anybody.

I just dislike the idea that having abnormal brain chemistry means you don't have any control over your actions.

Be not afraid...

well the death penalty wouldn't

hashtagsarestupid

Speaking as someone who has been clinically depressed in the past, I wouldn't say it leaves you with no control over your actions, but it does narrow your horizons quite a bit. There were times when I was literally unable to experience hope, not even the hope that the hopeless period would end. If you think that suicidally depressed people are still rational enough to have full control over their actions, you must realize that rational people do what seems best given the information they have, and depression really fucks up your information.

Having been clinically depressed myself, no, it doesn't close up your ability to choose entirely, but will slant your decisions by quite a bit. However, if you've just won the lottery, chances are you're going to slant your choices to spending a lot more too. However, the latter will be still be called rational. The point is, humans are never fully "rational", they just have states where one choice seems more preferable than the other, and so while I understand the woman's plight and need for support, I can never fully say that she should be let go for whatever she does in this state.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

This pro-choicer certainly wouldn't whine about it. I see the infringement upon rights on female's body, freedom ad self-determination. If that is removed, then I do not see how a living child somewhere could affect her wellbeing. She is not forced to take care of it, after all.

But anti-abortion folks...yes, it is very likely that they'd be angry if such solution was fond, or even if all chance of unwanted pregnancy was eliminated. I do not mean people on this forum - most of you are rational and honest, but you are aware that more often than not anti-abortion, anti-contraception and anti-women's rights go in package(

Of course I know that abortions are legal and widely available where I live. Besides, I am semi-asexual not really interested in all that "sex" thing except in theory, so it's not like I have such a huge risk to begin with. But

• The church is currently pushing to fix this "problem". They might as well succeed in my lifetime. I'd rather not take a chance
• I'd rather not face the prospect of abortion if there is a 100% way to avoid any unwanted pregnancy
• The mere thought that my body might become a trap through which my humanity and rights can be stolen at any time just because I am born with a wrong chromosome is...horrifying. I mean it (shudders).

@The Mighty Anonym

Yes, this one is Russian and currently lives there

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

So you would take permanent sterilisation over the possibility of becoming pregnancy?

---

Edit:

You know that is a very rare thing on on the interwebs

I Love ♥ You Guys!

edited 2nd Apr '11 9:27:31 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

I'd take sterialization that I could end whenever I wanted over spending my money on a far more expensive abortion, yes.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.