British AND European!

I was listening to a mp3 of an episode of "The Department" which had as it's theme EUROPEAN RELATIONS! I always find it odd and slightly charming that many (most?) of the British do not consider themselves European. In the show, a croissant of all things was made to repeatedly proclaim that he was "both BRITISH AND EUROPEAN!" while a pork pie repeatedly abused him. To Americans, or those who even are aware of the UK, we just lump most countries to the east of the Atlantic as EUROPE and leave it at that. How strong is this exceptionalism in British society? Is it an uniquely English sentiment, do the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish have the same feelings? What about Ireland? As an island, does it view itself separately from the mainland too; or with the adoption of the Euro, is it European?

UK hasn't adopted the Euro — mostly because it comes with some pretty strict limits on government spending (to avoid causing inflation that would affect the whole continent). It is part of the EU, though.

Speaking as an American, I consider the UK separately from Europe more often than not, but I still think of it as European in certain contexts.

The UK is a few miles away from continental Europe. They're part of the EU.

What would they be if not European?

I don't consider them "Europe" necessarily. I think of them as a separate entity, while mainland Western Europe is what I consider such in my head.

The UK is the UK to me, their own little deal. Probably has something with them being an island, and being the easiest to relate to for those of us in the US. God knows I can't relate to the French or something.

That's the thing though, you point to a map and some (a lot?) would shake their heads and say "Nope, channel separates it!" Also most british forums I've been to are always talking as though the EU doesn't include them. Of course it does, but that doesn't stop sniping about Brussel Rule.

Which begs the question, if the Channel never existed, would this even be an issue?

edited 1st Apr '11 10:16:58 AM by Freekippers

They're European. What else would they be? Are they trying to claim that they're not part of any continent? They're just as European as Japan is Asian.

edited 1st Apr '11 10:18:53 AM by Clarste

When the tabloids complain about Europe, they're really complaining about the various supranational bodies which have come into being since the end of the Second World War.

I would elucidate further, but these avatars are making the forum a bloody headache to read.

edited 1st Apr '11 10:36:58 AM by TheGloomer

Hey, at least you get to decide if you're European or independent. We have to choose between European and Asian as nobody takes Eurasian as an answer =)

From what I've seen, it's mostly an English thing. For people who essentially run the other two and a sixth countries in the UK they're very insecure about their national identity.

In fairness, there's also not much separating Africa from Europe and even less separating Asia from Europe.

The Mediterranean?

Sure, almost nothing separates Europe from Asia, but they're quite different socially and politically. The UK and Mainland Europe, not so much.

edited 1st Apr '11 11:53:55 AM by SavageHeathen

The fundamental convention upon which the entire British legal and political systems are based is the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. That's why a lot of British people, or at least those who are aware of the underlying legal issues, are suspicious of European integration; they believe that the supremacy of the legislature is being undermined by the increasing influence of the European parliament, the rulings handed down by the European courts and the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law via the promulgation of the Human Rights Act 1998.

The thing is, parliament is basically still sovereign. While section 3 of the Human Rights Act obliges the British courts to interpret laws in line with the provisions of the ECHR, they don't have the powers to do anything more than issue a declaration of incompatibility. They cannot declare a statute unconstitutional and they cannot strike it down; only parliament can do that, because no parliament may make laws which bind future legislatures.

Perhaps the Brits should give limited government a try.

I mean, sure they're Fascist, but Inefficient, but the UK is WAAAY too authoritarian. ASBOS anyone?

I can understand the legal unease about Europe vs. the UK on soverignty. What I'm more amused about might be the cultural distinction that is made. Such as a describing certain traits as continental (such as the cafe approach to drinking vs the British binge mindset) and others as distinctly British. It seems that it's an issue of maintaining a distinct legal and govermental tradition intertwinned with cultural attitudes that seem to play mostly English ideas vs. an all-encompassing European "Other."

This might be interesting to contrast with the more comfortable relationship between Britain and Germany, hence an "Anglo-Saxon" work ethic vs. a more lax French style. So is "Europe" really just code for French stuff we don't like?

OK, I just remembered another part of the show. When they were imagining Britain adopting the Euro, the four horsemen were riding out and a huge scary voice screamed "YOU'RE ALL GERMAN NOW!" and Death decapitated Lord Nelson's statue. So maybe not too cozy, maybe it's a more general Northern European thing?

edited 1st Apr '11 1:03:16 PM by Freekippers

Well, there are two ways of looking at Europe, according to the tabloids. On one hand, there's the mentality you've described there, and on the other, there's the attitude that all Europeans are just potential immigrants planning to come over here and cause cancer.

Ha, think the Daily Mail staff would ever call themselves European?

You could hang them upside down by their testicles and make them listen to recordings of Gordon Brown's speeches before they'd do that.

I default to think of myself as British. "European" is also acceptable.

Actually, you'll also find that there's plenty of people in Britain who don't consider themselves British first either. There are a lot of people who consider themselves Scottish/English/Welsh/Irish first and foremost, and some who even get offended if you call them British. They even ask about this on the census as well, as most of us will have noticed a few days ago.

Very strange.

Obviously the question of nationality is pretty important in my own region. I would like to believe that we're approaching the point where we can call ourselves Northern Irish first and either British or Irish second, but that eventuality is quite unrealistic.

This reminds me of a cultural awareness class I had where it was mentioned some people from Mexico find the phrase "Mexican - American" rather odd, because Mexico is in North America.

@Frodo Which demonstrates the reason why I really wish there was a better adjective to refer to people/things from the US.

edited 1st Apr '11 4:14:07 PM by Sivartis

My dad uses U Sains. (Pronounced U-S-ayins)

edited 1st Apr '11 4:17:31 PM by GameChainsaw

^ USaiyans?

yup. Thats how you say it.