I don't think that trope means what you think it does: The Paragon Always Rebels

Please look at the crowner. The name of the trope was already The Paragon Always Rebels. People assumed that it referred to our trope, The Paragon, which means something very different from what the title intended. The Paragon is the guy who leads by example. When he rebels, the guys he used to lead follow, compared to if some random hero no one cares about rebels. Read the rest of the thread if you want more detail. It not that long.

Here's a sandbox of a new description. Any help would be nice.

Not complaining, but I would like to point out that the line referring to dragging others down with him would exclude a lot of the examples currently on the page, despite it being the main difference between this trope and Fallen Hero. Just want to make sure everyone realizes this.

edited 21st Aug '11 12:55:15 PM by shiro_okami

Even with the trope redefined, the name would remain horrible. Could we at least get rid of the "always"?

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with deleting the "always." Anyone else have an opinion on that?

Also think that would help a bit.

Hmm should we split off the "Number Two (Good guy) with an Agenda and (maybe) rebels" the rest of this trope applies to then?

Number Two specifically says its this and the examples seem to follow that.

edited 22nd Aug '11 4:03:40 AM by Raso

"The Number Two who rebels with followers" would be too exclusive and not have many examples. The Paragon Always Rebels reference should be deleted from the Number Two trope.

Consensus is to redefine.

Well, there's the sandbox here. I'll swap it out now and start cleaning up the examples, but there was still a little argument on whether it should be cut down to The Paragon Rebels.

EDIT: Okay, I definitely need help with the examples. I just don't know the works in question at all to be sure if they're good.

For example, "Former Green Lantern Sinestro, the best and brightest Green Lantern who turned to evil." That could be right, but I have no idea.

edited 18th Sep '11 9:35:45 AM by Discar

AFAIK, Sinestro didn't bring anyone with him when he turned evil. At least not till he made his whole corp.

I would suggest passing this by YKTTW. It has a new definition, and most of the examples don't fit said new definition. IT's essentially a new trope, send it to YKTTW like any new trope.

Heck, it's getting a new title too.

Rhinox is not an example, he didn't make anyone switch sides.

edited 18th Sep '11 10:14:56 AM by Ghilz

"He manages to worm his way into the hearts of the men and women who look up to him, turning them to the dark side as well. This is the distinction from Fallen Hero: He's not just falling, he's making sure to take everyone else with him."

Take out these lines. Of the current examples on the page, only ONE actually fits this description, or at least shows how it fits it. (For those curious about which one it is, it's Horus from Warhammer 40000.)

IF you take out these lines, then there's no distinction with Fallen Hero. Also, you're wrong

Sigma from Megaman X would qualify, as would Morgoth in The Silmarillon, As would Satan.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:19:28 PM by Ghilz

Further examples that fit:

• Asmodeus from Points Of Light (brought a bunch of angels with him, became devils)
• Malekith from Warhammer (brought elves, became dark elves)
• Darth Revan and Malak from Knights Of The Old Republic (Made a whole bunch of Jedi fall with them as Siths)

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:24:10 PM by Ghilz

Deathwing also took his whole dragonflight with him when he betrayed the other dragonflights. Malygos later did the same thing, though a few of his followers rejected him. They're the leader of their flights, but Alexstrasza is more or less the leader of the dragons as a whole. However neither of them appear to be on the page. Loken also fits. He was corrupted and split the forces left to keep watch on Northrend in two. Or worse.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:34:21 PM by Arha

Alexstrasza wasn't really the leader of the Dragonflights as much as the one most specifically interested in preserving life on Azeroth, so she got the role by default. But Deathwing and Malygos most definitely count as examples.

@ Ghilz: If those examples fit, there is nothing on the page saying how they fit the definition (exception: I missed Malekith and Feanor). Also, Satan (and arguably Morgoth) were not paragons, although I suppose you could include it as an aversion, since that mistake is made often enough (which is why I listed it as an aversion on the page in the first place).

Even so, that's still not very many examples.

edited 23rd Sep '11 2:49:31 PM by shiro_okami

Reopening by request.

Morgoth had a ton of followers, including followers of those Valar that flocked to him (Like Sauron and the Balrog maiars). And since he didn't create them (since evil can't create life) he had to be an example/uniting figure.

Anyway, this still needs fixing.

You're Completely Missing The Point. Yes, Morgoth had followers, but he was never The Paragon. He turned evil almost immediately. In order to qualify for both The Paragon and this trope, the character needs to have spent a certain amount of time being a good example before their Face–Heel Turn.

So, does the crowner result still hold, or is it "outdated" and thus we should make a new one?

I don't think they've ever been applied, so I don't see why not.

I think the crowner has been applied to the description, but the examples have never been cleaned up.

Yes, and the laconic needs a replacement badly, too.

I think part of the problem is that people didn't start realizing that most of the examples don't fit the new definition until after the crowner was already decided, and that issue wasn't even mentioned in the crowner in the first place.

In #60, Ghilz suggested sending the page back to YKTTW. I think that either this or Marq's suggestion to make a new crowner are good ideas.

Could've sworn I fixed the laconic, at least...well, its fixed now.