Quickest way to shut down the remaining dictatorships

I just have one thign to say.

Leave Libya alone!

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?

I admit I haven't read about the UN's ROE (or for that matter the officially proper US ones) much, but I can't imagine they're as or more restrictive than typical civilian police codes of conduct. If they are though, then yeah, I agree that's ridiculous and impractical.

Eric,

edited 12th Mar '11 9:46:09 PM by EricDVH

It often constitutes that even while being shot at you have to get confirmation from the area commander to return fire back. Or that you are extremely limited in what means and tactics you may use.

In the time it takes during a firefight to radio command for authorization for something, half my fucking squad could be dead. If I'm getting shot at, I will go into search & destroy mode to find and take down the threat. No reason not to.

@Usht: You do realize I agree with the "There are no quick ways" argument, right? I just said that the sarcasm was not funny, to me at least.

@Barkey: I can understand your lack of... Motivation for assisting, but at least, in my opinon, they should try to offer help to places in need.

@Eric: No. In fact, having Chavez as your president is like getting the crappy end of the stick in the dictator aspect. We get the Butt-Monkey of dictators. Doesn't make him any less dangerous, or corrupt. Or are you a Chavez supporter? Or have you lived in Venezuela, by any chance? If not, then stay shut on matters you do not know about.

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.

Okay, sorry if I offended, I should probably consider that next time I feel like my a wise remark like that. And yeah, I met a lot of Venezuelans who moved into the US for the sole reason of trying to get away from Chavez, he's a serious problem, however I don't feel like I'm equipped to offer any actual answers as to how to fix the problem.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

: So you know the situation down there? Can I ask a question about Venezuela? Is it true that Chavez solved the unemployment problems, BUT his real problem was that he managed to remove the barriers of the slum leading to the reported crime statistics skyrocketing because now the poor was robbing the rich and the middleclass instead of each other?

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.

I do know crime increased (four fold, no less), but I don't know what lead to it or how Chavez managed to screw up that badly.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

: :(

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.

Well, let's start off this way: You guys don't have nearly enough law enforcement in that country. It was skimpy before Chavez and even skimpier afterward.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

@ Del Diablo: Let me explain it to you the unemployemt part. You know those guys who sell random crap on the streets for a living? Like Pirate movies and such? We call them "Buhoneros" here.

Chavez passed a new way to define unemployement: Everyone who has a job, even a non official one, like the VAST (not kidding you here) amounts of Buhoneros, is qualified as "Employed". With that definition, it is quite easy to say that there is no Unemployment in Venezuela.

Finally Del Diablo, yes, violence and "poor killing everyone else, even other poors" is a big issue, but is far from the only one or the most urgent or tragic.

@Usht: yes, things have been skimpy for a while.

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.

Looking over this training document (7.3MB PDF,) the list of generic RoE given on page 255 quite clearly allow self defense. It appears that language beyond that is tacked on for individual deployments, such as the pocket card from Liberia reproduced on page 246. Those rules do seem quite restrictive about intervening to protect civilians, and I can see how some people might misinterpret it as requiring authorization before lethal self defense, but it looks obvious to me that in a sufficiently desperate situation troops are allowed to ignore that for their own safety.

I admit I'm not certain whether the generic RoE apply to all deployments, or if the specific RoE drafted for some pick and choose among them.

@Polarity: So, I take it you would've preferred the CIA-backed military coup Chavez and his supporters narrowly managed to defeat? The man hasn't lived up to his promises (land reform STILL hasn't happened) but he's hardly a dictator.

Eric,

edited 13th Mar '11 2:32:59 PM by EricDVH

Seriously? That's phenomenally stupid. Economics don't work that way at all.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

That's hardly unique. In the USA for example, anyone who isn't currently recieving unemployment benefits won't appear in “unemployment” statistics, which includes people who've been recieving them so long they're no longer eligible.

Eric,

Not quite, see a country's employment rate is basically employed VS unemployed. However, there's a third category called "Not looking for work", which is to say, you're either retired, can't hold a job yet, or just don't want one and it doesn't count towards either employed or unemployed. I also assume Chavez has rigged this aspect too.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Exactly, Usht. You cannot hope to defend such inmense levels of stupidity and corruption, eric.

@Eric: Please, if you are a Chvez supporter, just tell me, and we can avoid a pointless argument. But I am going to assume you aren't, and are ignorant of the whole situation (Or really stupid, but I won't make offensive assumptions).

The Military coup of Aprill Eleventh (If you can call it a Coup at all) was not "supported by the CIA". A group of high ranking military officers came to speak to Chvez after the rioting massacre at Miraflores, and asked the President to resign. He resigned. However, after threats from other military officers supporting Chavez, and another whole situation involvong some disagreements among the opposition, Chavez was returned to his position with no fuss.

As you can see, Eric, the only violent acts came from the riots, and it was not a Coup, that is what Chavez supporters say, along with the whole "CIA trying to Kill him". Seriously, the man has been saying for years that Busch has been trying to kill him with an Ancient Conspiracy involving the Americans killing Bolivar (The liberator of Latin America) in order to get ahold of Venezuela. The man is paranoid and on full A God Am I mode. Anyone who buys the "USA conspirating agaisnt him" is either a firm supporter, Ignorant, Idiotic, or Batshit insane like he is.

He is not a Dictator "Theoretically". He rules a third World country, he is trying to supress any kind of political oppsossition, the country subsists by having a parasitic relationship with other countries, has been trying for years to make every single institution to be run by the state (Only slowing down because elections come next year), and is waiting to pass a new law that declares him president for life. Venezuela is also the country with the biggest inflation level thanks to him. I mean, the guy has been recorded by saying "Oh, the problems the country is facing? Don't worry, in 20 YEARS I will have had them already fixed". Doesn't that seem like a Dictator to you? He WANTS to be one, in case he is not one already.

Seriously Eric, where are you getting your sources on Venezuela's politics? I am a lurker, and I used to think you were this smart civilised guy, and then you come here insulting me by calling me a loon for opposing Chavez, while spewing facts where you Did Not Do The Research. You have lost some respect points in my book (Not that you probably care, anyways.)

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, his decision to run for another term is worrying (though our own FDR, without whom we would still be a 3rd world nation today, and who was called a dictator often, also ran for three terms,) but I do think he's a tremendous improvement for Venezuala, and also an excellent influence on the political turnaround that's begun on quality of life all over South and Central America. So yes, I'm basically a supporter, and you're a beneficiary whether or not you realize it.

Regarding your recollection of 2002 there are a few… Errors, maybe I'll go into it at greater detail in another thread, but for now I'll just pick at a few of the more mindboggling ones:

Maybe just the State Dept. then, semantics are important.

The massacre their snipers operating in lockstep with the astroturf riot's organizers probably initiated, and a riot done according to plans lain down in advance, whereupon they arrested Chavez.

That, and hundreds of thousands of citizens who marched to depose the coup, suffering forty deaths from police in the process.

We in the USA have people who make wild accusations about our new president too, they're called the Tea Party.

Eric,

edited 13th Mar '11 8:43:46 PM by EricDVH

Sigh... Eric, I'm going to make a topic for this to avoid derailing this thread. But let me clarify you:

Which Dictator are you refering to? FDR?

Since you live in USA, I would like to see from where are you getting your sources that he has been an improvement after the famous 40 Years of Democracy. If it is the Wikipedia article, then you gotta be kidding me.

I said I wasn't gonna argue with you, but you are a supporter from the outside, it seems to me that you lack perspective, without really knowing much about the whole thing.

Do you realize how biased Ed Vulliamy is? Not a good source, especially from The Guardian.

T He snipers were involved in the RIOTS, not the coup. The oppsosition was marching, when the snipers struck, initiating the Riots. (Yes, the snipers were Chavez supporters, if you must ask).

Marching to the presidential house is not a violent act. They came, with the officers, and he resigned. The opposition wasn't even armed. The only violence on that day was the riots, and the Chavistas were the responsible for that massacre.

It is one thing to say that the Tea Party is nuts, it is another to say that the opposition to a 3rd World president is just like the Tea Party. Your arguments lack basis, if you wanna get sources, get them from people actually experiencing the damn thing.You don't see me taking sides and saying what a great thing Bush was, because I am not an American, and I would look like a fool for saying that to the average American; even if the rest of the world considers your complains about him over exxagerated, but I don't do that, because I lack Perspective. Think about it, Eric.

EDIT: Also, your sources are not only biased, and are clearly supporters of Chavez, but incorrect. Venezuela does not have a democratic goverment, Chavez is a socialist.

One last thing, You also claimed that even I was benefitting from C Havez. How? My family has been unemployed Twice (First time for Two Years, then now for one year and counting) Because of the Goverment. Specifically, because the news station RCTV is an oppsition to the Goverment, so Chavez made sure to close it. How is that a benfit? We came from middle class to poor, and are persecuted by the Goverment because we are on the "Tascon List". How is the a benefit, Eric?

edited 14th Mar '11 12:58:24 PM by Polarity

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.

So to the other half of my question: assuming that you feel the world will be better off without dictatorships, what could we as individuals do to achieve that? (I'd rather this not be a conversation about whether dictatorships should be gotten rid of, unless it's a part of the answer).

Please quit saying "socialist" like it means Dirty Commies.

Or maybe it actually does in English? I'm having a hard time with this "false friend" words...

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."