Mutants & Masterminds

Kind of a major system, is there a reason there's not a thread for it yet?

I've been thinking of doing a few M&M-related things lately. So out of curiosity how many people here actually play the game?

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

I would if anybody else at my college were familiar with the system. I buy the books anyway.

I've mentioned this in the Comics forum but I'm thinking of running a game set on Mobius online. Think you'd be interested? I've got one player so far, and it'll be either my first or second M&M game (I've got a steampunk noir mafia game planned after my IRL group finishes the current D&D campaign, so it depends on how long that takes).

edited 27th Feb '11 1:36:18 AM by Ezekiel

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

I'm running an online M&M game via IRC; I like it, it's a really flexible system that allows you to create nearly any character you want without being mechanically broken.

Well, in 2e at least. The new 3rd edition rules are... strange.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I haven't even looked at 3rd yet. What's the deal with it?

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

For the most part it's just the same but simplified and more streamlined, which is awesome. But it gets really wonky in a few places.

I don't have the handbook on me right now so I could be misremembering the details, but here's an example.

In 2e, your attack roll is determined by your attack bonus. Buy a higher attack bonus, hit more often. Pretty simple. In 3e, though, they've changed attacking into a skill, like Stealth or Computers. Actually, they've changed it to two skills; one for melee and one for ranged. This means there are two new stats to go with them, in addition to The Six Stats. It also means that because of the way power caps work, offense always outweighs defense. I can't remember how the math works out, but it's basically pointless to put anything into AC, as they'll virtually always be able to hit you even if you max it out. So it's a lot smarter to avoid AC entirely and dump everything into toughness instead... which just breaks it in another way, as it becomes trivial to hit someone but nearly impossible to actually damage them.

I even tried to figure out a way to use the 2e version of combat with everything else 3e, but gave up on it because of how point costs have changed. Skill points cost twice as much in 3e (because they don't want to give you endless combat awesomeness for free), but they changed stat costs too (because there's now stats for combat to go with the skills), so it doesn't really work out.

Which is a pity, because besides the mechanical changes, the presentation of 3e is much better.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Combat attacks as a skill like any other isn't actually all that unusual- D20's pretty much the only system I'm aware of that doesn't have it working like that.

Just felt I should mention that...

Yes, but the difference here is that Defense, apparently, is not a skill. Admittedly I was always a bit confused by why you can buy Defense that works even when you can't dodge, but eh.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.

Here's the short version of how it works: attacking is a skill, but defending is a save. Skill modifiers are capped at PL+10. Save modifiers are capped at PL.

Since defence against standard attacks automatically takes 10 on the save, this means that, at the same power level, a character with attack at cap will always be able to hit a character with defense at cap (d20+PL+10 vs. 10+PL). However, you're allowed to trade a lower defense save for a higher toughness save, meaning that if your defense is zero (and why shouldn't it be, if it's going to be useless anyway?) then you can raise your toughness save to PL x 2, which is... pretty ridiculous, given that toughness DC is 15 + damage, where damage is capped at PL. That means that at PL 5 you're saving as often as not (average throw of 20 vs DC 20) and by PL 15 you literally can't be hurt (minimum throw 31 vs DC 30).

And that's against people of the same power level. If there's a power gap, it just gets worse.

edited 1st Mar '11 10:32:19 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I use Mn M for my Fantasy game.

That would represent Nigh-Invulnerability... is what I would say if Toughness and Protection weren't already exactly that.

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

Really? What's the power level?

@Native Jovian: Erm, skills may be capped at PL+10, but attack/damage and defense/Toughness have the same tradeoffs as ever. Assuming PL 10 characters, if your attack bonus is so high as to hit another PL 10 without tradeoffs every time, you have a whopping +0 damage bonus to your attacks. Also, Dodge and Parry are not worthless. It's true that Toughness-shifted characters have an easier time than defense-shifted characters, but IIRC the optimal tradeoff is to be +2 more of a Mighty Glacier than your opponent, and defense will help you avoid more than just Toughness-based attacks.

Huh? Damage is by power, and has nothing to do you with your attack bonus, so I don't know what you mean by that. And the PL+10 is the base cap — if you want to trade defense for offense, you do that on top of that. You don't have to make any trade offs to get a PL+10 attack bonus.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

That's only if you're using a power for your attack. And I'm not sure if those use the same attack bonus as regular attacks.

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

I know that damage is by power. What I mean is that a +20 attack bonus (again, assuming a PL 10 character) will preclude you from having an attack with a damage bonus higher than +0 unless it can't use the full attack bonus for some reason (say, if you only hit that +20 with your ranks in Close Combat: Swords and have a +12 otherwise, go ahead and buy Blast 8). Quoting directly from the book here:

PL +10 is the base cap for SKILLS, and there is no trade-off for it. In terms of attack bonus, that PL+10 figure caps how many ranks you could put into a particular application of Close/Ranged Combat, but you'll probably run into the attack/damage cap first. See also second edition: the ability cap limits your Strength to 40, but that doesn't mean you can keep that +15 modifier alongside a no-tradeoffs attack bonus of +10.

Also, if you want to perform tradeoffs between offense and defense outside of the Defensive Attack and All-Out Attack maneuvers, you'll have to ask your GM, as they are not presented as an option by the RAW.

Oh! I missed the fact that there was a cap for attack bonus + damage at PL x2. That makes a lot more sense.

It's still kinda wonky, though, it's it? It still makes more sense to boost the hell out of toughness and ignore defense class, because toughness applies to both ranged and melee, while defenses apply to only one or the other.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Yeah, Toughness is generally more valuable than Defense, but a character who takes a 0/20 tradeoff won't be so happy when facing an attacker who targets Fortitude or Will. Also, if your defense is THAT low, you're more vulnerable to attackers using Multiattack and Power Attack to even the odds. 8/12 is a pretty solid arrangement.

Weir Username: PL 4

Really? How's that working out for the fighter-types, if you have any?

Panhandling sign glued to hands. Need $5 for solvent.

Well, we're going through our first combat right now.

So I had a stroke of inspiration for a Mutants & Masterminds setting. The short version is, it's like a combination of the Titanic and the Flying Dutchman.

The long version is, a massive ship known as the USS Pilgrim is, unexpectedly, sinking, taking thousands with it. Desperate to save his passengers, the captain makes a deal with a sea god. The ship will be restored, and forever protected by the god's power, but will thereafter belong to the god. As a result neither the ship nor anyone who sets foot upon it can ever again return to land (exceptions can be made, whether explicitly in the terms or occasionally by the god, for such purposes as obtaining supplies). The god grants certain people superpowers as he deems necessary or amusing, and spirits also have a tendency to do so; others may of course derive powers from various sources. Over time additions are built onto the ship until it's the size of a city. The larger world setting has significant steampunk elements.

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

Er, that last thing was to invite comment...

Unrelated to that, though, I'm going to be running some solo M&M campaigns. Anyone interested?

edited 16th Mar '11 10:54:25 AM by Ezekiel

The comics equivalent of PTSD.

Ehhh, not really. In my opion, the more the merryer.

On a related note: In mutants and masterminds 2nd Ed, can temporary buffs like Boost take you above the power level limt? like, is it legit to use a strength boost and have a total of 50 strenth in a power level ten game? I'm confused on how the limits work excastly.

edited 13th Apr '11 8:02:47 PM by doorhandle

I think most buffs explicitly state that they don't allow you to exceed power level limits. Boost definitely says that, though it says the GM should "feel free to waive or modify this requirement as best suits the needs of the game".

The comics equivalent of PTSD.