Problems: You Keep Using That Word

The trope is supposed to be about words that are misused (Inconcievable used for Impossible, Sex used to refer to gender, etc...) And most examples are fine

However. several of the words listed are essentially "Word is misused coz it's not used in english the same way as it was used in (language of origin of said word)". Those are not examples, because they are different languages. It's possible for words to have different definitions across languages. Only the english definition should matter.

For example.

•When dealing with sources from antiquity, barbarian literally means "Someone who doesn't speak Greek." To the ears of the ancient Greeks, the languages of nearby non-Greek cultures sounded like they were just saying "Bar bar bar" all the time; hence the word "barbaroi", from whence descends our term. Technically, this is a value-neutral term, but the ancient Greeks were a bunch of snobs who didn't think much of other cultures; even if you came from Crystal Spires And Togas Land and the Greeks were willing to admit that your culture was more advanced than theirs, you were still a "barbarian".

This is an interesting Etymology bit, but, is the word commonly misused? Lets check the Webster

1. of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people.
2. lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture.

So no. This should not be on the page. Whatever the word meant to the Greeks, this isn't what it means in english.

Lets go for another:

*Despot (Greek despotēs, meaning "master"; feminine: despoina) was a court title of the Byzantine empire. A despot was given control of a smaller region of the empire, called a despotate. It was only when American revolutionaries said that the British were ruling them like an imperial outpost that "despotism" and "despot" came to be pejorative. Despot was also associated with absolute authority before it became associated with unjust authority.

From the Webster:

1 a: a Byzantine emperor or prince b : a bishop or patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church c : an Italian hereditary prince or military leader during the Renaissance

2 a: a ruler with absolute power and authority b : a person exercising power tyrannically

Here we have a problem with alot of the words on the page, where the person sticks to one original definition, ignoring those that the word has acquired over time.

The page needs a good cleanup. I love Etymology and all, but this isn't what the page is about.

edited 26th Feb '11 8:19:31 AM by Ghilz

Going through every single example, and comparing the explanations with those on dictionary.com, here are my results. As has been pointed out, a shitload of these are just words that have different meanings to the words they are derived from.

Note that in many cases, the definitions on dictionary.com include the ones advanced by the TVT page. I am only listing the dictionary.com definitions here that agree with the definition which TVT opposes, on the grounds that it shows TVT is objecting to a correct and reasonable use of the word.

• Zombie: Actually does mean a reanimated corpse, contrary to what the description claims. Delete.
• Universe: Dictionary says it's the totality of known and suspected things in all of space. The description appears OK, but let me propose a thought experiment

If you built a working bridge from Earth to Mars, would Earth and Mars suddenly be a single planet? The answer is no; they would be two planets linked by a bridge.

Similarly, the totality of what exists in space may be only a subset of all that exists, with the rest of it to be found in other space-time continua. If you link two space-time continua by some sort of portal, they don't suddenly become a single universe, they become two different universes linked by a sort of tunnel. I would say delete.

• Dimension: Says it's extension in a given direction in space and time, not another universe. Keep.
• Sentient vs sapient: Says sentience is the ability to perceive objects and sensations, and sapience is possession of reason an judgement. Keep.
• Conscious vs Self-conscious: Says conscious means awareness of surroundings, while self-conscious means aware of oneself as an individual. Keep.
• Republic: Gives both 'the head of government is not a monarch' and 'supreme power rests with citizens entitled to vote, an exercised by elected representatives'. The description is confused, but necessary action is clear: Delete.  ^{Interesting sidenote}
  ^{Apparently this means that the UK is a republic after all.}
• Tyrant: Says it's someone who uses their power oppressively or unjustly. Delete.
• Despot: The first definition is simply of a ruler with unlimited power, and the second states it is a synonym of tyrant. Delete.
• Dictator: A non-hereditary ruler with absolute power. Interestingly, this is what it means in Rome; the person who write the TVT description is simply whining about differences not in meaning, but in connotation. Delete.
• Bishonen: Not on dictionary.com, so I'm going with perceived usage. The page is supposed to be a list of English words. Now, the Japanese word bishonen means an androgynously attractive boy or teenager. However, the English word bishonen (derived from Japanese) means a particular type of male attractiveness, which may be possessed by a boy or man or any age. Delete.
• Last Rites: Um, what? Maybe it's that I was raised Catholic, but I thought that was common knowledge. Still, if people commonly think of it as anointing the sick with oil, I guess it should stay. Keep but rewrite.
• Akimbo: Means with hands on hips. Keep.
• Satellite: Something that orbits something else, which may be natural or artificial. Also a person or organisation that is attached to an depends on another. There's nothing in the TVT description indicating misuse, merely people using the term for a subset of everything to which it applies. Delete.
• Science: Yes, and? Those people in the white coats are called scientists. I don't think I've ever seen one referred to as "he's a science". Delete.
• Ghetto: Area of a city predominantly inhabited by members or minority ethnic groups, commonly due to poverty or social factors. No need to be Jews in particular. Delete.
• Knots: TVT description is entirely correct. Keep.
• Paedophilia: Says it is attraction to young children. The TVT description looks good, and the pederasty confusion is entirely correct, though the division between paedophilia and hebephilia might be splitting hairs. Keep but rewrite.
• Romeo And Juliet: This is not a word, it's a play. People compare their relationships to that of the title characters, but that's a matter of not being familiar with the play, and not a matter of misusing a word. However, the explanations of wherefore and star-crossed lovers are good and can stay. Split and remove the crud.
• Nimrod: A skilled hunter, though I get the impression that that meaning is going out, to be replaced by idiot. Keep, for now.
• Gunsel: A criminal with a gun, or a young, sexually active gay boy. Delete.
• Transpire: To happen. Delete.
• Matinee Entertainment or an event that takes place during the day, as opposed to at night. Delete.
• Item: A separate article, thing, or piece of news. Delete.
• IQ: Says it's a score derived from the test. I really don't think there's anything really wrong with saying "I'm measuring how many kilometred per hour this car does" - it's clunky, but accurate. Similarly, "What's your IQ?" is less clunky than "What's your IQ score"?, which is why it is used. The rest of the natter is simply complaining about the very concept of IQ. Delete.
• Meteoroid vs Meteror vs meteorite vs asteroid: TVT is correct, but unclear. Rewrite, making sure to note the specific size requirements for asteroids and meteoroids.
• Willy-nilly: Disorganised, haphazard, unplanned. Delete.
• Subliminal: dictionary.com and TVT are in agreement, and I don't think I've ever seen subliminal used to mean anything else. Delete.
• Sycophant: Arse-licker. Delete.
• Hierophants and Cenobites: Apparently, one movie franchise took a random term from Ancient Greek and used it for a race of demons. I don't believe I've ever seen misuse beyond Hellraiser or discussions thereof. Delete.
• Earth: This is a matter of misuse of capital letters, not misuse of an entire word. Delete.
• Nation vs State: dictionary.com notes that they are often used interchangeably, though gives definitions similar to TVT's own. Keep.
• Hispanic vs Spanish: Both sites in agreement. Keep.
• Barbarian: Savage and primitive. Delete.
• Conservative: Both sites in agreement, though the TVT one has a lot of natter and doesn't realise that American conservatism is not the same as conservatisms in other countries. Keep but get rid of the natter.
• Labyrinth: A tricky maze. I don't think I've ever seen it used to mean anything different. I say delete.
• Proletarian: One who earns their living by manual labour, or who does not possess capital or property and must sell their labour to survive. Doesn't even mention the bit about the only use being to produce offspring. Delete.
• If vs whether: Both sites are in agreement. Keep.
• Whence/Thence/Hence: Sites are in agreement. Keep.
• Mayhem: Random or deliberate violence or harm, rowdy disorder. Delete.
• Succulent: Sites in agreement. Keep.
• Orthodox: Approved doctrine/philosophy/ideology/etc. Customary or conservative attitudes and actions. Delete.
• Accuracy vs Precision: This is a purely scientific difference which does not apply to everyday life. Keep but rewrite.
• Bestiality: Sites in agreement, surprisingly enough. Keep but rewrite to emphasise that even though bestiality can mean other things, it very rarely does.
• Fantastic: Gives both of fantasy and awesome. No misuse here. Delete.
• [Word]aholic: This is complaining about how silly neologisms don't conform to preconceived but nonexistant notions of grammar. Delete.
• Meme: Once again, it's whining about people using a word to refer to a subset of the entirety of what it applies to. Lolcats are memes, so there's no misuse. Delete.
• Stoicism: Wha? Since when has this meant a mental disorder? Delete.
• Destiny: Something guaranteed to happen in the future. Keep.

At this point, dictionary.com started experiencing technical issues, so I shifted to Wiktionary.

• Savoury: Can mean tasty, salted, or just not sweet. Nothing about being spiced or mandatory salting. Also, I don't think I've ever seen the word used to mean smells nice. Delete.
• Decadent: Moral and cultural decline, luxuriantly self-indulgent. TVT is wrong. Delete.
• Awful: Horrible. Delete.
• Artificial: Man-made or unnatural. Delete.
• Boat: Something that transports things across water. Delete.
• Mystic vs Mystical: They mean the same thing. Delete.
• Eke out: Obtain with difficulty and effort. Delete.
• Acronym vs Initialism. Sites agree. Keep.
• Due to: Provides no evidence or examples of misuse. Delete.
• As such: Sites in agreement. Keep.
• Shojo-ai and Shonen-ai: Again, this is simply noting that the words have different meanings in English and Japanese. No evidence of misuse. Delete.
• Ashes vs Cremains: I checked, and it's right. I didn't know that. Keep.
• Extravaganza: "an event or display (dramatic, musical, etc) of fantastic or chaotic behaviour or conduct" (emphasis added). Since it can refer to a party, there is no error here. Delete.

That's the first folder done, and I am exhausted. I might do the rest later, if and when I feel up to it.

edited 26th Feb '11 10:39:10 AM by VampireBuddha

This trope is about language drift changing the accepted definition of a term.

However, the Trope Namer is not a good example: As stated in the page quote, it was after Vizzini used his Catchphrase a bit too often. "Conceive" is an acceptable verb for "to think of" (how long it has been used in that manner being up for debate), in which case "inconceivable" quite simply becomes "I can't believe it!".

... Oops, I think my train of thought got lost. Anybody got a GPS?

edited 26th Feb '11 10:30:46 AM by Stratadrake

The bit about Aweful is correct, but it's not longer the most common meaning of that word. See definitions 2-4. That said, it likely belongs better in the very pedantic category.

Mind you, my main problem is at least removing all the "But it means something else in language X" We don't care. We aren't in X. That's clear misuse

As for the trope is about "Misused words" or "words whose definition has evolved" thats a debate worth having.

I'd say that the whole "Extremely pedantic folder" could go away. The name of the folder itself says "And chances are, no one will care" That's a good indication that it's examples where the only thing to object to is that the current use doesn't match the etymology or original use. It's just a place for nitpickers to whine about current use.

Another thing that we need to look for and root out is examples where there's a well-established current, common use and a much more precise definition when the same word is used in a specific field as a technical term. That's more invitation to nitpickery.

"Words whose definition has evolved" is basically the first paragraph of the trope description.

^ Decimate (verb): Originally a Roman punishment of executing 1 of every 10 men, now means the reduction/slaughter of a majority share. You Keep Using That Word?

The description is very clear about how "This isn't a general style guide; these are specifically words that have commonly contested usages."

Zombie, bishonen, and republic, are correctly listed according to this definition, because someone who wants nitpicking could contest them, even if it means disagreeing with the dictionary.

The description itself objectively describes how these views all can be arguable.

That means it a license-to-whine page. Those get cut. And it's a license-to-whine page that isn'rt even about tropes. That makes it even more vulnerable to being cut. We can clean it up and restrict the examples to "words that are misused" or we can accept that sooner or later it's going to be purged from the site completely as negative, nattery and not what we're about anyway.

Some of the words listed are good. Sex And Gender for one. So how should we tighten the definition to remove the liscence to whine? We need to do this before deciding what should go and stay.

Am I the only one who expected a page about characters using words to mean something they don't?

That would make far too much sense!

We should have have that, in addition to this one.

We have it I think. But not as a single trope, it's partially covered by Shlubb and Klump English

Anyway, removed the following examples:

• Already: Im not going to justify this with a reason.
• Polyamory: We don't give a f... about greek and latin mixes, the word exists "In ENGLISH"
• Hopefully: As the Natter points out, even the most basic of dictionary has the common useage.
• Cool: The webster has both definitions.
• Hacker: Webster has both definitions. Purist of the old term be damned.
• Tradition: The Webster list the most common useage as the first definition.

edited 26th Feb '11 7:42:01 PM by Ghilz

Having done the first folder, here's my view of the second.

• Melee: I don't think I've ever seen this used for general hand-to-hand combat outside of Super Smash Bros. Delete.
• Race vs Species vs Phylum: TVT is quite correct. Keep but rewrite.
• Aryan: Means the Nazi ideal. Mere linguistic drift. Delete.
• Gene vs Alelle: Description is correct. Keep.
• [1]: Sites in agreement. Keep.
• Good Samaritan: A person who gratuitously helps those in distress. Delete.
• Anarchy: Can mean both lack of hierarchy, or general chaos resulting from lack of government. Keep but massively rewrite.
• UFO: Sites in agreement. Keep.
• Gay: Homosexual. And seriously, when was the last time you saw someone using it to mean happy who wasn't an Ainderby Quernhow? Delete.
• The words for being a bit rubbish:
  • Lame: Sucks/out of touch. Delete.
  • Dumb: The very first definition means stupid. Delete.
  • Idiot: A dumb person. Delete.
  • Moron: An idiot. Delete.
  • Imbecile: A moron. Delete.
  • Cretin: Can mean a genetic disorder, but is most often used to mean an imbecile. Delete.
  • Stupid: Lacking intelligence and wit. Delete.
  • Retarded: This one still does mean a mental disorder, but is currently sliding down the Euphemism Treadmill. Keep for now.
• Begging the Question: TVT is right, though the logicians chose an astonishingly misleading name. Keep but rewrite.
• Moral equivalent: I have no idea.
• Giant robot: TVT is correct. Keep.
• Distaff: Sites are in agreement. Keep.
• Bar Mitzvah: Can be both the person and the ceremony. Delete.
• Penultimate: Sites are in agreement. Keep.
• Hysterical: TVT is wrong; the word just means uncontrollably emotional. Possibly keep but rewrite, though I have frequently seen it to refer to a woman basically experiencing a breakdown.
• Work: The physics definition is just one definition, and is one of the more recent ones as well. Delete.
• Amount vs quantity: They're synonyms. Delete.
• Immolation: Can mean either a sacrifice, a fire-based sacrifice, or destruction by fire. All are acceptable. Delete.
• Family crest: looks OK. Keep.
• Lay vs lie: Correct. Keep.
• Internet vs World Wide Web: Correct. Keep but trim the description.
• Human: Description is a bit wordy, and could use a trimming. It's the first example I've seen that refers to genuine controversy, rather than just alleged incorrect use. Keep but rewrite.
• Controversial: Description is correct. Keep.  ^Note
  ^{In the case of child porn, the controversy is not so much about the porn per se, but rather about whether freedom of speech should allow it.}
• Archaic: The TVT description is confusing. It says it doesn't refer to something merely outdated, it refers to something... outdated. Keep but rewrite.
• Manger: Correct. Keep.
• Fundamentalist: Iffy. dictionary.com mostly agrees with TVT, but the very first definition it gives is of a Protestant movement. The TVT description seems to be objecting to connotations rather than the definition itself. No idea.
• Tsundere/Yandere/Kuudere: Someone complaining about linguistic drift. Delete.
• Miscarriage vs Abortion: TVT is incorrect. Miscarriage is natural and unplanned, abortion is deliberate. I've never seen them confused, so I'm leaning towards delete.
• Contemporary: Sites in agreement. Keep.
• Fetish: Genuine controversy. Keep.
• Sewer: Wikipedia evidently considers a storm drain to be a type of sewer. Delete.

I'll do the final folder at some point in the future.

I`ve seen melee used for general hand to hand combat. Dungeons And Dragons does it for one. Keep that one

I've seen melee used in a ton of games to refer specifically to close-range combat. I vote keep.

Isn't "gay" already covered by Have a Gay Old Time?

edited 27th Feb '11 9:47:39 AM by Stratadrake

Have a Gay Old Time already covers quite a few of the words on that list, since it's not limited to only "gay".

"This trope occurs when "language drift" — natural changes in the common vocabulary — causes a word or phrase originally intended as wholly innocuous to be potentially taken as startling, confusing or just plain funny in a different time or place. Usually relates to sexual euphemisms, but can also involve other sensitive concepts."

edited 27th Feb '11 9:54:35 AM by Madrugada

Melee is definitely used for "close range combat". Particularly FPS refer to it as either "knifing" or "melee" attacks, depending.

Ah, OK. In that case keep Melee.

This isn't a problem with negativity or being a license to whine. The problem is that most people believe one of two things with language definitions:

1. Only the word as it's defined in most dictionaries is correct, even if most people use it differently.

2. If most people use a different definition of a word, that's the word's definition, even if the dictionaries say otherwise.

See the word "ironic", for instance. Even dictionaries can't agree on whether it can mean "sardonic speech" or not.

So when the public and the dictionaries disagree, who's the wiki going to side with?

edited 27th Feb '11 5:19:13 PM by Redhead

So when the public and the dictionary disagree, who's the wiki going to side with?

That's not the issue. In fact, that is what the trope is SUPPOSED to be about.

People use Sex when they refer to gender. People use Melee when they mean close quarters combat. The "Common use is not what the dictionary says it means" is what the examples are supposed to be.

The problem is when there's an entry going "Most people use the word to mean X when the dictionary says Y" and you check the dictionary... and it says both X and Y!

Or "People use it to mean X, when it means Y in language Z" Well the wiki ain't in Latin/Greek/Japanese/French/Italian, it's in english, similarly the trope is based on words in english. You can make a version on the various language namespace for examples in other languages.

edited 27th Feb '11 5:22:50 PM by Ghilz

We have at least one person, a mod, saying that the page is about whining about how nobody uses the dictionaries' or original definition, and that at least part of the page should be cut because of that, and I'm sure there's others who agree.

So one side says that it doesn't matter what the dictionary says (meaning that the page is pointless), and the other says it does (meaning that this is a trope), and I think that a lot of this page's problems stem from that.

edited 27th Feb '11 5:36:07 PM by Redhead

Don't get too hung up on 'mod'. Just another contributor who can do a few extra things, a mod's opinion is no weightier than any other.

I'm only speaking as a mod when I preface my posts with <Mod Hat ON> and end them with <Mod Hat OFF>. If those tags are not there, I'm speaking as just another troper.