Why are U.S. foreign military bases good/bad?

Both countries agree to the SOFA. What more do you want?

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I don't really have anything to say to defend this other than if it was my responsibility to dole out the punishment without consequences, I'd have had them all face a firing squad. Just sayin, I'm just as angry as you that the military doesn't have the backbone to execute people anymore when the crime warrants it. -cough- Major Hasan - cough-

A foreign nation is in no way indebted to us for having a base in their country, unless they have an extremely hostile neighbor and that base is the only thing keeping them from attacking.

And remember how you phrase things Signed, if an atrocious crime happens in an American Military base, overseas or not, it's our jurisdiction. All US Military Bases are considered to be sovereign American soil. If a crime happens outside in completely foreign territory, you refer to SOFA, or if there is no SOFA, then it's up to us to decide and negotiate what we want to do about it.

Just a Pro Tip for the day as well, American Aircraft on foreign airfields are sovereign. Our military aircraft are not subject to any sort of searches unless the aircrew commander says so, and we're free to do whatever we want to someone in one of our planes, soon as you set a foot on that ramp, you're on American soil. If you're a threat to the plane whatsoever, then we have the right to defend ourselves. I.E. shoot you from a window.

BUT, unless agreed to prior to the event, we are not allowed to take weapons off the aircraft in any country, unless it is an American Base, or a NATO member country. In other words, I can walk around the plane guarding it with an assault rifle in any NATO country, but I cannot do so in.. Cuba at Havana International, as an example, because they are not NATO. But if I land at Gitmo, then I can.

There you go, you've now been briefed on the rules of engagement of Americans on foreign soil.

edited 17th Feb '11 9:07:30 PM by Barkey

One other thing to remember: How are these exact same crimes treated in civilian courts? Most of the time, even in the clearest cases, it drags on for years and years, nobody gets executed, tons of them get let off on parole or bail. Do the territorial things involving soldiers deployed internationally make things a little bit worse on top of that? Definitely, but the same can be said for police officers, celebrities, and the wealthy, among MANY others. The simple fact of the matter is that justice doesn't always come to pass, and this sort of thing is no exception.

Eric,

Still, I can't really see the point of the US being the only country that has to have large bases of armed personal on the other half of the world to defend themselves. It's pretty shaky justification for me and I can see why people could view it as imperialism. (Because, let's face it, war isn't the only way to do it.)

I probably dont see the whole process, but it really does seem that when soldiers or police comitt crimes, they barely get off with a slap on the wrist for something that would land any civilian on death row. Im not sure if there's a reason for this, or if its an exageration, or if it really is just that soldiers and police are seen as infallible and that anyone they rape and murder are just scum that deserve it.

I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed

To be fair, I (note I'm not 100% certain on this) believe other countries like France, Russia, and Britain also have base networks today, though obviously their base spending isn't at the unrealistically insane levels our is.

Eric,

^

That's because they disappear Silent. You gotta remember, we have our entire justice system in place separate of yours, I've never seen anything resulting in the death of a civilian by a soldier be punished by anything lighter than 50 years at leavenworth, unless it's some special manslaughter case of being reckless but not malicious.

We don't have very many rights, as soldiers. Thus when you go in the whole at Leavenworth, they decide how often you come out, and you're essentially in a prison full of people trained to kill people, keep that in mind.

It would be nice to hear about it. As it is now, all we get is a kind of impotent anger when reading about the atrocities comitted by people claiming that they are protecting us. I'm not saying it should be a public spectacle or anything, I justy wish they'd actually report the punishments properly so the rest of us dont feel like we're nothing except walking target practice if we're in the wrong place.

I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed

^I thought you weren't American.

Im not. You're not the only country with a military, you know.

I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed

Really now? I would of never guessed. I was under the impression that this thread is about the US having bases in foreign countries; silly me.

edited 18th Feb '11 4:55:30 AM by Kino

It was, but then we kinda dipped into war crimes in general.

I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed

Lets not forget the fact that bases overseas are a great way for you to learn the local language; the things we do for sex.

Britain and France also have their forces sharing some of our bases overseas - I've seen British and French sailors and soldiers on base in both Bahrain and Singapore.

The military doesn't usually publish the punishments because unless the rest of America, they don't view a court trial as a public spectacle. Also there are some punishments that most of the public wouldn't understand, such as being barred from future employment  ^*

^{as an example, Mc Donalds won't hire anyone who received a Bad Conduct Discharge or Dishonorable Discharge - that's right, after getting sentanced, spending years in a federal prison, you can't even get a job flipping burgers}

.

edited 18th Feb '11 6:50:33 AM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

^

Pretty much. It's rather difficult for a civilian to fully understand the gravity of a dishonorable discharge. The shame, shunning, and inability to work someplace better than Mc Donalds.

Think of if the Jury were your parents, and they were ability to force your entire family to instantly hate you and then issue a restraining order of sorts between you and each individual family member. That's what it is in a societal and spiritual sense.

The military as a whole doesn't believe in punishment being a public spectacle, as Blue Ninja, an active duty sailor iirc, just said. Even most basic chastisements tend to be either behind closed doors or from a dreaded "come hither" finger wag out of earshot so an NCO can rip your ass with an inside voice.

That doesn't necessarily apply to non-NCO's, but the rule of thumb is never to chastise a leader in front of the men he leads, it casts doubt on his command. Even from the E-4/E-5 level.

edited 18th Feb '11 2:59:34 PM by Barkey

Okay, I'm gonna have to call bull on this one. It's kinda shameful yes, but if I talk purely about about recklessly killing civilians and the more severe crimes (as opposed to simple vandalism), "shame" and "shunning" is nothing compared to the crimes they committed.

Try to imagine what would happen to Green and the rest of his accomplices if they were instead forced to face justice of the country they committed their crimes in.

Sucks that they can't even flip burgers, but that is a slap on the wrist compared to the severity of some of their crimes...

It's the equivalent of a priest doing something unforgivable, and instead of getting a harsh sentence, they just excommunicate him.

This is just applying your own values while on other people with different value's soil.

Of course I'm the type who believes in harsh eye for an eye justice...and I know this happens quite a bit even in non-military settings.

I do believe that those who are meant to uphold the law and protect people should be punished more harshly though. This includes cops.

---

PS-I'm not talking about petty crimes, I'm often talking about stuff like shooting civilians intentional or not. Or abductions and rape. The more high profile ones...

PS 2-On that note...I'm honestly not quite sure where the Abu Ghraib situation stands...it's high profile and despicable, yes, but the stuff they did did not look anywhere as bad as some of the other stuff that soldiers have done there. They made the prisoners get naked and make a pyramid and put an underwear on one of their faces right?

edited 18th Feb '11 3:23:17 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

For crimes like murder and rape, they don't just dishonorably discharge. That's life after years in leavenworth.

^

About Abu Ghraib.. The getting naked and making a human pyramid part is against the rules, as is all the demeaning poses etc, but putting a bag over their face (It wasn't underwear) is actually SOP for prisoners downrange. Usually it's an empty burlap bag or something to that effect. It's much easier to control a prisoner if he can't see shit, also way easier to keep them from figuring out exactly where everything is in the prison and mentally mapping it out.

All the civvies were like "OH MY GOD THEY PUT BAGS ON THEIR HEADS WHAT THE FUCK!"

But we still do that to every prisoner, it's a sanctioned standard practice, you'd get in trouble if you didn't, and we have a good reason to do it. :P

edited 18th Feb '11 3:26:53 PM by Barkey

I guess this is where I disagree with you in terms of punishments. For me, life in jail for the big two does not fit my image of true justice. They're still leeching off society even though they committed unforgivable crimes. I believe soldiers and officers should be tried more harshly due to the nature of their jobs, this goes beyond military settings anyways, so it's getting way off-topic.

So I'll just end things here with "the west is too liberal at the same time too conservative, and many lack manners when it comes to visiting foreign soil".

• PS-This is clearly an underwear◊

edited 18th Feb '11 3:35:10 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Should have put blind folds on them and given them cigarettes. Just to fuck with them.

Fight smart, not fair.

^Mock executions are against the Geneva Convention.

So in other words "Torture and the death penalty is wrong in the civilian world!"

"Oh, sure, torture the fuck out of soldiers and officers. It's ok."

Most of us have great manners and a healthy curiosity to learn about the host nation when at a foreign base. I love going overseas personally, but we're a population, and every population has a percentage of shitheads. It's just that an overwhelming majority of us don't do anything wrong, then one guy does something and everyone compares us to the SS.

Not fucking fair.

^^

Hahaha.. I stand corrected, still rather funny though.

Yeah, nobody cares that if we get captured by these guys we'll be tortured with battery acid and then decapitated on video and streamed to liveleak, but OH GOD FORBID WE HUMILIATE SOME INSURGENT!

Show some fucking loyalty here people, jesus. And people wonder why soldiers have the occasional second thought about civilians not being expendable, when you show how much you "care" in ways like that, it doesn't do much for my protective instinct towards my own people.

edited 18th Feb '11 3:44:35 PM by Barkey

Signed, is that really your big complaint? US SOF As are bad because the military doesn't kill people often enough? Even when most first world nations we have bases in have abolished it or use it even less than we do?

edited 18th Feb '11 3:53:28 PM by Roman

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@Barkey: I don't think he's an American.

Hey signed. Guess what happens after the military is done with them. The civilian courts get a crack at them. Get off your high horse.

Who watches the watchmen?

^

If that's the case, it's still an empathy failure. : /

They kill their own civilians on purpose with no punishments, but we kill civilians by accident, actively try to prevent it, and punish people who do it on purpose.

They capture us, and it's a pretty much ensured decapitation after several days of painful torture.

We capture them, they get free healthcare, 3 hots, and a cot. And eventually get released free and clear, one major incident has been recorded of mistreating prisoners, and it wasn't torture, it was just humiliating the shit out of them.

Disproportionate retribution much?

I don't know if that still counts as on topic, but it does apply to our bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and the local climate there.