God sacrificing Jesus

Is it really that big a deal for him? Okay, people explain that Jesus was God's son, and he sacrificed his own son for the redemption of mankind and such. Or that Jesus was God himself and so that was God sacrificing himself. This was, of course, several thousand years before modern science, which has put things into a different perspective.

Let's take a look at the "Jesus is his son" perspective. The lowly fruit fly can lay several hundred eggs in a few days. The fact that 95% of them will die isn't really horrible or sad, it's just the way life works. But, you say, Jesus was his only son, and he died. Sure, yeah, but then again, God is some trans-dimensional being and after Jesus died he just went back to where he came from. Really, it was just a bad, 30-year vacation on Earth before returning to his home. Does that really count when you KNOW there's a home for you to go back to after all the hardship you endure? That's like having your character die in World Of Warcraft and you say, "aw, screw it," and log off for the day.

Then there's the "Jesus WAS God" perspective. Again, trans-dimensional being that we can't fully comprehend... but he's existed for longer than the universe (14+ billion years), CREATED the universe, and then creates one human for one (short) human lifespan and puts his "essence" into it. and it dies.

To me, that's like losing a single skin cell. Heck, in proper perspective, my losing one skin cell is probably a bigger sacrifice to me than God did with his mortal clone. So what's the big deal?

There's also the fact that Jesus is supposedly in heaven with God, so he didn't sacrifice him, only make him experience the pain of a mortal death, which really isn't that big of a fucking deal to where we need a cult to worship him.

I don't think it's really an even trade for all of humanities sins.

Because it begot worship and glory and gave fuel to the church to justify their shit

And because humanity's sins could... um.. only be cleansed by a human. Or something.

I'm with you on that one, man. Of course, I'm of the "why the fuck do humans need saving" camp but meh.

Well to be fair, some denominations claim that his suffering on the cross was commensurate with the sins of all of humanity, meaning that he suffered far more than anyone else has ever suffered. Which would be a pretty big deal if it were true.

All matters of evidence aside though, I have to question the sense of an omnipotent god that sacrifices itself to itself to forgive people and expunge them of sin, instead of just cutting out the middleman.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:01:47 PM by Desertopa

Personally, I'm opposed.

Well to be fair, some denominations claim that his suffering on the cross was commensurate with the sins of all of humanity, meaning that he suffered far more than anyone else has ever suffered. Which would be a pretty big deal if it were true.

That sounds a bit like entitlement, doesn't it? It's not like the romans crucified anyone else or anything... Right?

That's like trying to pick a particular jew in the holocaust and saying that one suffered monumentally more than every other one.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:04:19 PM by Barkey

@Dia: You think we're inherently good and don't need saving from anything?

^

I think we are what we are, and don't need saving period. Humans are humans, we don't need the charity of a deity to survive and thrive. We all have the capacity to decide what to believe in on our own and don't need some helping hand.

We don't owe God anything for creating us, I don't see why people think that. It's not like if he didn't, we would be around to feel unfortunate about that. There isn't some cosmic debt to the Lord On High that every human should be working to repay, but never will.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:06:33 PM by Barkey

@Dia: You think we're inherently good and don't need saving from anything?

These are two separate questions.

My answers are "mu" and "yes, meteors" respectively.

Humans are humans, we don't need the charity of a deity to survive and thrive. We all have the capacity to decide what to believe in on our own and don't need some helping hand.

That's a platitude, in the sense that I can't derive any concrete philosophical positions from it. It could mean anything from "we can thrive through a system such as Confucianism" to "liberal individualism makes people great."

And I wouldn't say we owe God anything for creating us. We owe God everything for loving us.

God sacrificing his son... That's some piss-poor parenting there, in my opinion.

@Rottweiler How do you define what the love of God is?

@Mark Well, Jesus volunteered!

edited 12th Feb '11 9:11:54 PM by KCK

No, we don't, we didn't ask for it.

That's like if your car window gets broken, and I live next door to you. You're pissed off and go to bed, then you wake up and see that I fixed your car window at my own expense! Because I think you're a cool guy!

That doesn't mean that you owe me, because you didn't ask, it's essentially getting people into debt via entrapment. Acting like a petty ass loan shark isn't exactly what I consider loving behavior.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:12:21 PM by Barkey

This is one of those religion threads that I look at and go "I'm not touching this".

And then I get involved anyways.

The sacrifice is a big deal. Jesus became fully human, and suffered an agonizing death as a human. What's more, he was perfect, unlike any of us. It's terribly unfair that he would have to suffer like that, but he did so to save us, in spite of our rejection of him.

His death is tragic. Imagine a very kind little child... being tormented to death because of something that you did. If that child had done so to save you, you would feel pretty emotional about the whole thing.

Because he was perfect, and did not in any way deserve such a death, his sacrifice cannot ever be paid for. The suffering he experienced cannot be repaid.

As I see it, the big deal isn't so much sacrifice in the normal sense as humiliation. Yes, it was a 30-year vacation, but it was a vacation in Hell.

• Jesus in heaven in a serious Bad Ass. In the Book of Revelations he slew someone with his toungue. On Earth he was just some guy. With a Charisma score of 20+, but still.
• He is part of group of people who basically are the CosmicPlaythings of the age. Not only is he a Jew (who were pretty much hated back then), he's a migrant worker born to a teenage mother who got married less than 9 months before his birth.
• He is subjected to one of the cruelest forms of punishment ever devised, for an offense he never committed (claiming to be a head of state, instigating an insurgency).
• He is sent to Hell for 3 days. Hell, from Gods point of view, is separation from God. Since Jesus is God, it's like having your soul cut in half.

But yeah, when you think of billions of people x how long we live x the rate at which some of us sin...

I think basically God had already decided to forgive us, but because he'd said he wouldn't he needed an excuse.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:13:42 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

@OP

You are forgetting something very important LOVE.

It is true that we are so insignificant then why an omnipotent being would even bother to die for evil insects like us....The other option was destroying us....

The simple answer is love.The fact that he could resurrect doesn't remove the value of that as an act of mercy but more importantly love.

That my friens is agape love.

Jesus is indeed the most badass person ever.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:13:50 PM by FallenLegend

And I wouldn't say we owe God anything for creating us. We owe God everything for loving us.

Why? Would you say that love in general is something that incurs a debt?

If I love someone but never make them aware of it, do they owe me?

^I tend to love the ones that love me

love doesn't work that way.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:15:49 PM by FallenLegend

Wow, pull yourselves together people.

Anonym: People have died worse deaths than crucifiction, trust me. I mean that's a shitty way to go, don't get me wrong, but yeah, he's so damn special apparently. Humanity was developing on its own just fine without Jesus showing up.

If a girl tells me she loves me and treats me well, does that automatically mean I owe her for loving me? I appreciate the gesture, but if I don't feel the same way, I don't feel the same way. I'm not obligated to love her back.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:16:20 PM by Barkey

How do I collect debt from people I love for my loving them?

@Barkey That depends on who you ask.

Barkey, man, I think the line about acting like a petty loan shark might be my next sig.

It's not a big deal, but that's not the point of the story. The point is that humans have a chance at salvation.

^Love is not about "debts". Love gives without expecting anything in return.

If you don't want to love God back is your choice.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:17:37 PM by FallenLegend

I love you Aon, that will be ten dollars and a morning prayer to me for the rest of your life. Except Saturday, I expect you to be hung over that day.

^^

What sort of vague garbage is that? Having a horrible existence after you die for not swearing allegiance to someone who's done nothing to you? That's like saying that I should be put in prison for not being a fan of the president. I just don't have the capacity to do it, and I'm not going to fake trying.

I don't desire "salvation", I like things just the way they are. Reincarnate me, end my existence completely, but what sort of god just decides to drop your ass off in hell for not supporting him, even if you were a good and charitable person in life? If that's the sort of judgement call God wants to make, then I'd rather die standing than live on my knees, swearing allegiance to what is essentially a tyrant.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:20:45 PM by Barkey