That hell is a place of shame and separation from God and not a torture dungeon. Still stinks in a Who Wants to Live Forever? kind of way, but not as horrible as some people make it. I like tektontv's take on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-q5vGcpx1sY
How do you embed videos??? I don't think annihilation would work as an idea, because those guys have problems with the amount of people dying in the OT. So, I don't think Killed Off for Real -would work as an alternative. Basically, you can't have a utopia that pleases everyone.
edited 16th Nov '14 12:49:35 PM by bookworm6390
Staring At My Own Grave
My response has been unconventional: Somewhere along the way, I stopped believing in Hell.
I used to think that I had to believe it and something about it did appeal to my brutal sensibilities (some of my beliefs about Nature and Life are kind of dark) and there's a certain pride our society breeds in "going with the most cynical answer makes you smart." Honestly, when you think about it, though Christians are made fun of for our Glurge, a belief in Hell is the darker, more cynical thing than belief in Nothing! In the end, I didn't really like the belief at all... It really made no sense to me with the whole "loving God who is TOTALLY not a tyrant" thing, so when I encountered counter-arguments against the common tradition/common American belief from people who did Bible scholarship, I got really happy.
Recently, I found someone who did some excellent argument along these lines. He's not the only one, as I've found others before him, he's just one of the latest. This guy argues from an Anihilationst perspective in his personal theology, that is, in the most simplistic terms "Believers go to Heaven, those who reject God go to Nothingness," but he covers a lot of different perspectives in a blogging series:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/category/letting-go-of-hell-series/
As for my perspective, I am, at present, what you might label a Christian Universalist (at least in my "more believer, less agnostic" moments). I really like the idea that "even in Sheol, God is there" and that Jesus loves us, loves us a bunch because he puts Skippy in our lunch! — Nah! My belief is that any God worth the trouble has to love us enough to never, ever give up. At least, if we can even bring down mysterious forces of and beyond the universe into human terms.
So, my answer to people who can't stomach the idea of anyone believing in a God who'd send anyone to an eternal torture chamber for any temporal crime is - "Hey, I agree with you." ...At which point, unless they're a reasonable person who actually wants discussion and is interested in my point of view, I'll tend to just walk away leaving them to puzzle over their encounter with a weirdo. A lot of people tend to get dissapointed that you don't think they're going to Hell because they were spoiling for a fight to begin with. I've learned from Internetting out this stuff that trying to put a flower in someone's gun just gets you shot most of the time, so leaving is an option.
I figure my stance on this, anyway, is kind of like being an Asexual: It is not common in the culture, most people can't imagine it, and therefore, you "don't exist" Sometimes, no amount of standing up for yourself is going to convince people who don't don't think you exist or want you to exist to realize that you do.
I find that I fall into a lot of in-betweens like that in life, so I guess it's natural that I'd do so with theology. Nothing is ever black and white with me.
edited 16th Nov '14 1:19:24 PM by Shadsie
In which I attempt to be a writer.
Thanks for you support. I'm doing a little better today.
You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.
Anything? I mean, Jesus did get on to the Pharisees, but I wouldn't say that all of Jesus' words were condemning!! What is up with that person???
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No that makes complete sense. Remember when Jesus said love thy neighbor? Well that's completely condemning to all those people who aren't your neighbor! Which I believe in that woman's case would be everyone.
shine on
compassion... one of the lessons i'm still learning.
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
shine on
ive heard of Corrie ten Boom. remarkable woman.
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Staring At My Own Grave
I saw something today that got me thinking about the nature of idealism. I decided I'd rather talk about it here in the coven than generally in the Off-Topic because I feel safer here.
I was poking around on Patheos and wound up clicking one of the Atheist blogs today, because it seemed like it had something surprisingly sympathetic toward us on it. I'm too lazy to find it again to link, but "Goddless in Dixie" has a post about "The Boxers in Ministry." In the post, he counters the popular idea that everyone in religious circles / the ministry are flock-fleecing orc-monsters because he knows people who are sincere about their work. He related a story of a friend of his who is apparently still his friend after he became apostate, who gave loads of his time and energy (for something that the blogger thinks amounts to nothing) and who was put out to retire. The blogger compared his friend to the gullible, dimwitted horse, Boxer, in Animal Farm . He had sympathy for the "Boxers," saying that he thought "they'd make great Humanists." Between the actual post and some of the comments I trailed down to, I was struck with two thoughts:
1. I wonder if his friend knows that he's being called gullible and discounted online. If any of my friends did that to me, for whatever reason, the last they'd see is my backside and a door closing as I cut them off from my life. I wouldn't make a great Humanist, you see... I don't have much use for members of the species that blatantly and openly cannot respect me as an equal if they dare call me "friend." I don't care what you think of my god, it's when you potshot me is when we're through.
2. The bent of the article and the comments I saw showed me something about the rapid death of idealism as a virtue in our culture. It was sympathetic and it did point out that this kind of working until You Have Outlived Your Usefulness happens in secular settings / corporate settings, too, but still... It really seems like in our culture in general that the idealists, the sincere people who REALLY DO BELIEVE in a thing or a way of life, are looked down on more and more as being at least somewhat pitiful or gullible in some way. The tone might change if someone's an idealist for the thing you're an idealist for, if the good things they do suddenly stop being under the name one hates and are done the same exact way for one's team - maybe Mr. Gullible Mc Stupidpants becomes the smartest being on earth...
But I get the feeling that most people just want those sincere hard workers and self-sacrifices on their team so that they can be the ones taking advantage of them.
It really does seem to me that when someone believes in any thing, any ideal strongly and self-sacrifices for it and does all of the really good, selfless things for it, people on one hand admire that kind of courage and patience, but on the other hand, are glad that they "aren't that stupid" and look primarily to their own needs. "The idealist misses out!" or "wastes his life!" or is diminished in some way.
I see it a lot, not just in the religious-issues... I mean, some of my very favorite fictional characters are Wide-Eyed Idealist s and are see both in-universe by their fellows and by some fans of the their stories in meta as kind of "dim" or "crazy" or "wusses." I love Vash the Stampede, for instance, and I like Link of Legend of Zelda's Chronic Hero Syndrome , and I've latched onto Pit of Kid Icarus Uprising pretty hard...
I teteer between a since of idealism and of cynicism. Sometimes, when I see a lot of cynicism, a light gets flipped on in my brain and I want to resolve myself to be a Wide-Eyed Idealist despite how dumb the world will see m.
So I ask, is the "someone believes in and works for something sincerely is one to be pitied" attitude really a bent of our culture? Has materialism affected it and really perpetuated it? Are some people more prone to praise rather than pity idealism if they fall under "the correct ideology?"
And... is Christian idealism dead?
edited 25th Nov '14 2:46:15 PM by Shadsie
In which I attempt to be a writer.
shine on
My journal is ready
edited 29th Nov '14 5:49:18 PM by PersistentMan
Have you forgotten the face of your father, troper?
Not to mention that it doesn't matter how many good works you do, you're still going to sin sooner or later. I think one of the main reasons not believing in God is such a grave sin in Christianity is that it's pretty difficult to accept His forgiveness without believing in Him.
On another note, one reason I've noticed that atheists bring up for not believing is that they find the whole idea that one will be sent to Hell just for not believing in spite of all the good things one does in their life to be rather insulting. How would you guys respond?