Christian tropers, join together!

If we were talking about The Epic of Gilgamesh, yeah I can definitely see it, but Beowulf? Not a bloody chance.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:14:09 AM by dRoy

Yeah, or the Enuma Elish, perhaps.

My NIV Study Bible says that the entire Noah's arc (hehe) is likely based on the tablet XI of the Epic of Atra-Hasis.

Also, many of the Proverbs are apparently heavily influenced by Egyptian literatures.

That reminds me; during the first couple of classes in World Civilizations, we talked about how only couple of centuries ago people were intepretating history more in terms of teleological perspective. We were required to read somewhat abridged version of The Epic of Gilgamesh and chapter 1-4 of Genesis.

I guess Genesis indeed is the most popular creation myth in the world.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:27:36 AM by dRoy

Yeah, when you compare the Biblical books to other works from the same time period there's a definite influence there. It's quite interesting.

Yeah, it's fascinating both how similar so many other ancient myths are, and how much less reasonable and more mythical they are then the biblical account. It really supports the assertion that the Bible is an actual account of events from before the dawn of civilization.

Unfortunately post-flood all the rivers would have been different, so it's more likely that as humans repopulated the earth they reused old names.

Yeah, if the flood was truly global, it probably messed up the topography so much that the Tigris and Euphrates probably aren't even the same.

Curiously enough, no geologists have yet to found any evidence suggesting such large scale floods actually happened.

I find this quite interesting.

Actually, a lot of geologists have,it's just that the current mainstream doesn't favor their interpretation of the evidence (a most of the relevant evidence can be interpreted either as gradual processes over an extremely long period of time or as cataclysmic processes over a short period of time. It's a complicated issue.

Yeah, it's one of those issues that's really open to interpretation.

True: I forgot to take post-Flood remodeling into account, and stand corrected.

I find this post quite infuriating.

I got nothing to say on this one.

Even if you've lived in a Christian household all your life and gone to church since you were a kid... that doesn't necessarily make you a Christian unless you personally believe. Faith is something that you have to find as an individual - it can't be inherited from your parents or passed down from your friends, although they may have affected your decision in one way or another.

EDIT: The rest, though, is between God and yourself.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:49:55 AM by Pyrite

Ah, that thread. I used to find it interesting, but after a while it felt like we were just going over the exact same arguments again and again and again, with only minor variations in wording.

Good to know that it is still going strong

As for the "who counts as a real Christian", I think that it's just not my place to say. If one self-identifies as a Christian, that's good enough for me. It may or may not be good enough for Christ; but ultimately, that's not my business, I think.

EDIT: If I may use an exceedingly dorky simile, it seems to me that that's a bit like snooping into other people's homework and trying to guess which grade they deserve. Rude and kind of pointless, especially when you have your own grade to worry about

edited 8th Sep '12 9:55:04 AM by Carciofus

To further extend the simile, it only matters if you are going to copy off their answers or if you are tutoring them.

To return to the topic of comparisons between creation myths for a moment, I was thinking that there is at least one element of the Judeo/Christian creation account that is very distinctive — the role of humankind in creation.

In the Enuma Elish, for example, the creation of humans was really a bit of an afterthought — the gods needed a Servant Race to work for them, they had the corpse of a powerful god lying around and wasting space, so they shaped humans with its blood and called it a day.

On the other hand, the book of Genesis is crystal clear on the fact that humans are a very important part of the Creation, and one that was of especially great value — "gardener princes", so to say, made in the very image of the One and tasked with taking care of the Earth.

This is an insanely megalomaniac thing to write (which is why I like it, obviously)

edited 8th Sep '12 10:55:58 AM by Carciofus

Ah yes, the whole "Who counts as Christian" debate. All I really have to say about that is that it's something that's really between oneself and God. Although I will admit that I'm skeptical claims of Christianity that down have any appreciable effect on behavior.

I think L Mage does have a point in that post, though; faith is a personal decision, not something that you inherent. Coming from a Christian family means nothing if you don't accept that faith for yourself. Although looking at that thread, I certainly don't agree with his overall assumption that all Christians are homophobes; the "Christian" label is far too broad to make any blanket statement about stuff like that.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:04:06 AM by JapaneseTeeth

When I read that part I quoted, I was nearly furious and feared that anything I type will most likely result in Jesus appearing next to me and telling me to calm down.

I find just find it really offensive; unless you are God/Jesus himself, you have no right to judge who is a Christian and who is not. That is all I have to say on this matter.

@Carc - What I find more interesting is the fact that human is made out of blood. I think it reflects the belief that mankind is always bound with violence. It isn't surprising, considering how turbulent ancient Mesopotamian region was, what with all the murders, feuds, wars, and pattycakes.

In fact, it is rare to find a creation myths that doesn't involve killing something. Making the world out of dead gigantic entities is pretty popular, as witnessed in Norse and Chinese mythologies, and some Meso-American mythologies (source: Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth).

By the way, has anyone read this Cracked article?

5 Things You Won't Believe Aren't in the Bible.

I have indeed read that article, and I find it endlessly amusing. Although I can't say I'm surprised by those things, given that I love stumping people with factoids like that. I've always loved the fact that angels generally resemble Cthulhu more than babies with wings.

I read that before I started to read The Bible more seriously so I did not know that. It was pretty surprising to me, as a result. I don't know why, but I liked the revelation. Maybe it is because of my belief that softness is not part of The Bible. I guess I may be wrong in this regard.

Random thought.

The Hell is commonly depicted as the place where there will be wailing and teeth gnashing. I thought about it today and thought:

The Hell is basically the dentist's office.

Appropriately enough, when CS Lewis was discussing purgatory, he compared it to a dentist's chair and being asked to rinse.

But yeah, I've always liked learning the little facts that people think are true but aren't really. Like the fact that there were probably a lot more than 3 wise men, and that they probably weren't kings either.

I know that they weren't kings (where did that come from, anyway?), but more than 3? Can you elaborate?

They were most likely astrologers or diviners from Persia (it's believed that they might have identified the star as significant due to Daniel's influence from his time there). In all probability the group was probably a bit bigger than 3 since their would have been more of them, although it could be just about any number, because the exact number is never mentioned. There are three gifts, but they could easily have pooled their money.

EDIT: Also, Jesus might not have actually been born in a stable. The words used in that story for "inn" and "stable" can possibly refer to the setup of a typical Israelite house of that time period. It's possible that what happened was that there wasn't room in the main boarding room of the house (due to the extended family coming into town for the census), so Mary and Joseph got put up in a storage room (that would have been used to house animals during the winter. The manger might have been stone, and actually built into the house itself.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:55:03 PM by JapaneseTeeth

I see.

Also, isn't where Jesus born different in each Gospels?

Um, no? Only Matthew and Luke describe his birth (Mark and John start their accounts after Jesus begins his ministry), but both Matthew and Luke agree that he was born in Bethlehem and Mark and John do not contradict this.

No, I mean as in the exact spot, in the inn or the manger, stuff like that. I know that the town is the same one.

I need to read the Gospels again one of these days.