Another Gender Topic: Does a Heroine need a Villainess?

It's more like we can't have the heroine be a victim of gender abuse, that's kind of... too demeaning... We can have her boyfriend be, I dunno, anally raped or something for motivation, but we can't have the hero be given that treatment except perhaps in backstory...

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it makes me feel very uneasy. A scenario like that only works in hentai, where the plucky heroine winning is a plot twist in and of itself, you usually expect her to give in and become a pregnant mindless sex addict by the epilogue...

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."

You are confusing Cassandra Cain, the black-haired batgirl who wasn't taught language as a child, with Kate Kane, the red-headed current Batwoman.

I apologize. The Bat Woman and Bat Girl pages- they are confusing. And don't get me started on Super Girl...

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."

I still say the best way to avert making her a victim of gender-based abuse, then, is to have her fight male villains and female villains, and don't portray either fight any differently.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.

Equal opportunity ass-kicking OP; it's amazing.

Didn't Veronica Mars, an intelligent female protagonist, get raped in the show?

She was roofie raped in flashbacks.

So we're saying that it's only okay if it's in flashbacks versus part of the plot?

I doubt anyone knows what we're saying.

I'm not sure we're saying what's right — we are instead doing what TV Tropes is good at, which is seeing what things works are generally actually doing. Which, in recent years, means that abusive or nasty backstories (or, indeed, Rape as Backstory) are a lot more acceptable than the same things happening to a heroine in the present day.

A brighter future for a darker age.

Not what is morally right but what feels narratively right.

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."

However, less heroic forms of fiction do tend to have it more — there's a fair amount of Young Adult fiction which involves really horrible things happening to the main character.

A brighter future for a darker age.

Death by Newbery Medal?

I always hated that sort of books.

edited 7th Feb '11 2:16:40 PM by Ardiente

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."

That's sort of my point; female superheroes tend to be Distaff Counterparts to preexisting male ones and to have Continuity Snarl backstories.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.

That's certainly not what I'm saying. I for one would love to see a character played by Kristen Bell get raped in the actual plot without roofies. I feel that Alias also missed numerous opportunities for sexual violence.

This just in, Tongpu all about rape plots. Nah just kidding.

But I think we've drifted away from the OP. I think it is simple enough to say that a heroine does not need a villainess.

Aaand we ave a consensus. Congratulations!

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."

I generally prefer stories where if a heroine loses to a villain it doesn't end up with her getting captured. I find it perfectly acceptable if she's simply forced into a retreat.

Not really related, but the Distressed Dude trope bugs me as the dude usually gets out on his own. I don't really call that being in distress.

edited 7th Feb '11 11:46:22 PM by SandJosieph

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What do you guys think of this?

High School wrestler defaults

What about when it's gender-flipped, though? Like with the male hero being the main protagonist and the female villain being the main antagonist?

Like with the later seasons of Mystery Science Theater 3000?

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No. A heroine doesn't 'need' a villainess. But it is foolish to assume that sex and the sexual politics of male and female don't influence how the characters interact. The thing is that you can completely disregard the whole issue but your work will be poorer for it. Unless your stories are about robots then you can't not have it be a factor. It doesn't have to be a significant factor and it doesn't have to have it's grubby fingerprints all over the entire breadth of your work but it isn't the works that totally disregard the gender issue that go down as being invigorating takes in the subject.

I think the best way to look at this is to look at Aliens. James Cameron didn't decide that gender didn't matter. It obviously mattered a lot. It was just that neither Ripley or Vasquez were constrained by their gender and yet they were informed by it. Had he chosen to make the alien queen an alien king then it would have changed the dynamic of the conflict. It would have said different things, had a different feeling.

Or to take another look at it. Part of what makes the song of ice and fire fun is that people have to deal with all the gender politics of medieval times, but are not defined by them.

Probably one of the best books I can recommend in giving lessons in how to approach the issue is 'The Steel Remains' by Richard K. Morgan. Whatever else can be said about the book it offers a crash course in how you can have gender and sexuality be defining characteristics of a person not because of authorial fiat but because of how these facts have impacted their life. In the case of the book you get a gay man in a world that takes a dim view on homosexual conduct fighting against a villain who is morally repulsive to him, but is also fantastic in bed and willing to be okay with his being gay (cat man?). In fact almost all of the book is a study of how gender can define us and yet at the same time doesn't define anything.

Long story short. Gender should inform both hero and villain and as an author you should be aware of how the change in gender changes the dynamics of a relationship or, conversely when it doesn't. See full metal jacket and a particular sniper whose gender means little when it comes to her fate.

edited 17th Feb '11 8:06:51 PM by Shrimpus