Why do "Western" and Japanese games seem to have such different char

It's enough that Japanese and American cartoons seem to be bizarrely different looking.

But that it carries over into being a clear aesthetic difference in other things is truly dumbfounding. I just noticed when trying to look for wRPGs I'd like, instead of pirating or something, and then buying one if I was impressed, I decided to just watch a whole bunch of Let's Plays of various wRPGs. Oblivion, Mass Effect, even Divinity II.

The areas are very lush and beautiful, more beautiful in terms of flora and fauna for fantasy atmosphere than many jRPGs. Especially the areas in Divinity II. You couldn't even tell that you weren't in a really well made jRPG if you were just looking through that. And then, the obvious thing that makes you realize you aren't comes up. The characters aren't designed anything more than even remotely found in Japanese games, especially jRPGs. They just, their faces and proportions are so different. You can tell by looking you are most likely not playing a Japanese game at all.

You can say "it's because of the anime/cartoon difference", but really, could the extremes of difference in animation extend that far? Most Final Fantasy characters don't look . But even games like The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, where the characters aren't very "anime" looking, some having almost cartoonish features, look very different from American games in general. I've never seen a wRPG character who looked remotely like Link.

And this seems to extend into other genres. Laura Croft doesn't look like it was made in Japan, and Tekken 3 doesn't look like it was made in America. I don't know why, though, since neither are particularly based on anime or modern American cartoon aesthetics.

The exceptions seem to be games like the Donkey Kong Country series, which didn't look remotely different from platformers made in Japan. Even though it was made by Rareware in Britain. And games like Little Big Planet, whose cutesy design is indistinguishable from anything made in Japan. But strangely those are the exception.

Why, why is this? Why am I able to see easily tell the difference between wRPGs and jRPG based upon character stylings?

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

From what I understand, the Japanese have a codified idea that strength is something which defies odds. In the west, we tend to prefer our heroes with bulging biceps, badass armor, and perma stubble—you know someone who looks the part. But in Japan, there's a persistent idea that someone who is manly doesn't need to broadcast it or that someone who is strong can showcase it through skill and finesse rather than outward appearance.

Or at least, I read that somewhere on this wiki.

I think it was the Values Dissonance page.

Really? I've seen plenty. Or was it that you were only looking at the males?

More important question: Why are you so worried about it?

That's not a more important question, that's a terrible question. Why wouldn't somebody be curious about such a thing?

And really, I'm not just talking about something that can be chalked up to called Western game figures manly and Eastern game figures effeminate. Donkey Kong Country 2 had a manly figure. Donkey Kong is a hulking pile of muscle. But like I said, it's indistinguishable from a Japanese game. In fact, apparently it's now one. Despite being originally British.

There's more to this than just gender aesthetics and idealisms. I've personally never found Japanese styles particularly feminine and "Western" ones particularly masculine. Shounen leads are incredibly "manly". Goku is of bulging muscle. While Fosters Home for Imaginary Friends is not manly looking in it's cast. The cast of Ben 10 isn't exactly muscle-bound. Neither are the males in Archie Comics or Peanuts. Or Invader Zim. Or Psychonauts. I could go on for hours about non-Japanese comics, cartoons, and games, that aren't any more "testosterone-laden" than the stereotypical Japanese variety.

The very examples I gave subvert exactly this. Tekken 3 has Heihachi Mishima. Practically bald, musclebound, facial haired, and rutheless. Psychonauts has a waifish, bug-eyed little boy.

edited 29th Jan '11 5:50:56 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I'm still not seeing the problem, in fact you're making it even more confusing. You're saying that Western characters and Eastern characters are different and then you start naming off examples that contradict that.

That's the art style and the look of the characters they decided to use. I wouldn't immediately think of a character like Shepard as masculine because of his appearance no more than a character like the Pokemon trainer. So I really don't understand the issue. Do you want every hero character to look the same? I don't understand what you're trying to achieve...

edited 29th Jan '11 5:55:46 AM by NULLcHiLD27

Dragon Ball is from a completely different era and is now an exception to the rule. The protagonists of currently popular shounen series like Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tail and One Piece, are all toned but not exactly buff.

And if you're going to look for a comparison to Shounen heroes, Archie, Fosters and Peanuts are horrible examples. The closest equivalent westerners have are superheroes, so let's look at them instead. Ben10 is a decent parallel, but keep in mind that the aliens he transforms into are mostly buff and hulking.

Wait, we're classifying Link as a so-called "girly man"?

Yea, okay, there's a point where I start wondering if certain Western gamers have trouble telling genders apart in real life.

edited 29th Jan '11 5:52:21 AM by Rebochan

Just because I've noticed differences in design doesn't mean I necessarily think it's a gender thing.

edited 29th Jan '11 6:03:31 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Pretty sure he was joking.

Spiderman isn't exactly muscular, he is compared to an average person, but compared to someone like the Hulk (Whom I'm pretty sure he's defeated before) he's extremely small.

I never meant it as a gender thing...

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as difficult or something, I haven't slept for almost 24 hours and won't be sleeping for another 12. Bear with me...

edited 29th Jan '11 6:03:13 AM by NULLcHiLD27

What does it matter what I want? Why are you asking such a question?

I'm sick of being asked "what's your REAL agenda" all the time. Can't someone just be curious?

You don't see what I'm trying to achieve? I see what you're trying to achieve. You're trying to throw my opinion where it doesn't belong. Stop it. I'm getting sick of this. Over and over. Allow a person a thread objectively to do with curiosity without agenda thrown in. You want to bring bias into this thread and I don't.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

: We think of Link as girly because he is not overtoned, the "Uggh" when he is hurt, and that he actually got hair on his head. The fact he is usually a teenager also helps. Add on that he is always properly dressed, with a long tunic that could be mistaken for a skirt :P I think Link is somewhere on the sane middleground between the worst offenders here, on 1 hand we got Warhammer Bald, on the other hand we get.... Traps?

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.

To be honest, I'm curious about it too o-o You can most of time 'feel' it if game is made by Japanese or Western developers, even if the game doesn't have any obvious things pointing out to the either one .

Not really. I'm asking a legitamite question and from the sounds of things you don't have an answer other than morbid curiosity, which is fine.

I don't think of it as a culture thing or anything like that. They're are masculine and feminine heros in both western and eastern media. They're not exclusive to one or the other. It's just whatever the creator's decided and the only way you're gonna find out is to ask the creators themselves.

I mostly play western games and I never think of the characters as masculine because they're muscular, I think of them as masculine because of what they accomplish and the odds they stand up against in the game.

edited 29th Jan '11 6:27:28 AM by NULLcHiLD27

And just because I can. Doug, Avatar, Calvin and Hobbes, Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, The Adventures of Tin Tin, Little Nemo, Hey Arnold!, ...oh, I'll do more later. This would take all day.

And I should be using more Video Game examples. Considering this is about aesthetic differences in Video Games, not Cartoons and Comics.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

At the time he was created, Spider-man was specifically a deviation from the norm. Although, I'll admit that Heroic Build didn't really start becoming codified until somewhere in the 70s or the 80s.

Also, it might help if we actually compare characters from similar genres. Comparing Calvin and Hobbes to Berserk would be just ridiculous.

I have heard that the Japanese prefer their men bishonen, but honestly, I think Western culture likes "toned-but-not-hyper-muscular" men just as much as Japan does (although Western pin-up men tend not to look quite so pretty).

Honestly, the kind of hyper-muscular Rated M for Manly tends to mostly appeal to men themselves (whether they want to be super-macho themselves or think it's hot or both). I'd say you'd have a much harder time finding a man-liker lusting after Duke Nukem then you would finding one who appreciates Garrus Vakarian.

And let us not forget, Garrus is a scaley alien bird-dude.

We're not comparing Calvin and Hobbes to Berserks. We're giving counter evidence against this growing stereotype that "Western" = Testosterone Poisoning and "Eastern" = Camp Gay.

There's no more meaning to the example than that "Western" animation has plenty of waifish kids who would get beaten up with a empty Coke Can and Japanese animation has plenty of guys whom are dying of Steroid abuse.

I swear this is like comparing the Machismo of Rap and Rock music.

edited 29th Jan '11 6:42:56 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I wasn't saying you did.

I was saying, let's keep the genre comparisons consistent.

Honestly, while there are different aesthetics in play, I find the "all the men look like women" claim baffling. Yeah, there are some games and animes where the ambiguity is real. But in the vast majority of cases, the only way you could think the male characters are women is if you are intentionally being dense.

Case in point, Final Fantasy X. Really, guys, Tidus does not look like a woman. Facial structure is wrong, physique is wrong, neither his hair nor clothing look particularly feminine. . . its like anybody without either facial hair or steroid muscles is automatically considered feminine.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com

But Spoony said he looked like Meg Ryan! That means he's totally indistinguishable from a girl!

Yes, and we must trust Spoony. He is the foremost expert on everything.

Especially Other M.

Are you...taunting me?!

Nope... maybe just a little...

I'm suprised you haven't said much, you're usually very vocal about this sorta stuff from what I've seen...

edited 29th Jan '11 7:53:52 AM by NULLcHiLD27